askMuslims.com: Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) in Islam

Friday, July 17, 2009

Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) in Islam

64 comments:

Robert Sievers said...: Luke 22:70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are (T)the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because (X)flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

I must say, though, that the title of the article is very accurate. Jesus Christ in Islam. No Christian will ever talk about who Jesus is by saying "Jesus Christ in Christinaity". We will just tell you who He is, not who He is according to Islam, or according to Jews, or according to Christians, but just who He is. Jesus Himself is telling you too, if you will only listen to His words.; July 21, 2009 4:36 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Robert Sievers,

First of all Peace and Blessings be unto you (that's how Muslims greet)

it'snice to see that there is still people out there who are ready to defend their faith, whatever their faith might be.

I have a question for you Robert, is your purpose to beat Muslims in arguments? or are you really searching for the truth?

If it's an argument that you want then your wasting your time, but if it's truth that you seek i'll be more than ready to discuss religion with you and why or why not is Islam or Christianity the right religion.

Thank you and Peace be with you :D; July 22, 2009 10:32 AM
Robert Sievers said...: abdullah

Salam alakum

You ask if my purpose is to beat Muslims in arguments or to search for truth. Neither. I am not interesting in debating, and I have searched for truth and found it already. My purpose is to present that truth so that others might come to know it as well.; July 22, 2009 11:48 AM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Robert,

Peace be with you

Will you be willing to leave your faith if you were convinced that something else was the Haq(truth) ?

And just to answer the same question for myself yes.....because if aren't willin to leave your faith even if you find it unsensable then there ain't no point talkin.; July 22, 2009 12:32 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alikum abdullah,

Yes, if there were convincing proof that my faith in Jesus Christ were misplaced, of course that could not be ignored.

Faith would be of no value if the substance of that faith is of no value.; July 22, 2009 12:57 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Walai Kumas Salam wa rahmatuAllah hi wa barakatu Robert,

Mashallah that's Good. InshaAllah (God willing) I'm lookin forward to discussing what you belive and what I do.

Unfortunately I have to leave for something but my question right now is what do you belive about life..its purpose? Who created us? And why?; July 22, 2009 1:07 PM
Robert Sievers said...: God crated us to worship Him, and to enter into a relationship with Him.

Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;; July 22, 2009 1:12 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u Alaikum wa rahmatullah hi wa baraka tuhu Robert,

Alhamdulillah(All Praise to God) i completely agreed with what you said. But i asked you what YOU believe not what a book in the New Testament says.

As i said before if you want to completely cling to your faith (book) and not look at things from anopen mind thenthere really is no discussion.

Saying that i pray to God All Mighty to show us the Straight path and the truth iregardless of what it is and may he give us the courage to accept it.

My question to you is you mentioned God, who exactly is god do you think?and how many of them are there? when was he born? will he die or can he? Tell me what you think about this person or persons you call "God"

InshAllah i'll wait for your reply

Peace be with you; July 23, 2009 7:59 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abudllah

As it happens, what I believe and what the book says happens to be the same, so it was a way to elaborate.

I will answer your questions straightforwardly. God is the uncreated creator. He was not born. He cannot die. Perhaps it is better to say He cannot not exist. He defines justice and mercy. He transcends space and time.

And yes, abdullah, I agree completely that if you want to completely cling to your faith (book) and not look at things from an open mind then there really is no discussion.; July 24, 2009 6:21 AM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatulla hi wa baraktu Robert,

Mashallah as of right now we seem to be in complete agreement with each other.

You didnt specificallymention it but im assuming that you believe that there is only One God and not multiple gos right?

And since you already answered that the purpose of existence is to worship God then would it beaccording to you be fair to say that worshipping anything or anyone besides God would be outrageous and blashfemous (basically do you agree that there is none worthy of worthy except God without any partners)?; July 24, 2009 12:26 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum,

Yes, there is only God. And yes, worshipping anything other than God is one of the worst sins that can be made.

In this we also agree that we agree.; July 24, 2009 12:35 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum,

All Praise to God yet again we agree

And from talkin to you so far im assumin that you believe that to acheieve Salvation one must comepletely detach oneself from the evils of the worldly life and submit to the will of The One True God right?; July 24, 2009 12:41 PM
Robert Sievers said...: abudllah,

This is where we disagree. While removing all evil from ourselves and putting ourselves directly in line with God's will is the ultimate goal, reaching such a state of existence is humanly impossible. Humans are naturally selfish and against God, and it is only by His divine abilities can He give us a new nature to follow Him. Even still, our flesh will often override our desire to do right, much to our dismay. For salvation, God must provide a way for us to change from our nature of sin to a nature that wants to love, follow, praise, and worship Him.; July 24, 2009 12:47 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatulla hi wa baraktu Robert,

Robert i never meant to say that we can acheive salvation in this life by any means, as you said that's not possible(atleast not for us regular humans). I do agree that human's inner nafs(desires) that on top of satan's whispers keep us from completely submitting to God. And yes it is God andGod alone that canlead us to the right path.

Now i must ask you, what exactly do you believve, since so far we seem to be believing the same thing.; July 24, 2009 12:53 PM
Robert Sievers said...: I believe God needed to provide a method by which we could be saved. He knew we all fall short sometimes, and that the penalty for sin is death. That penalty must be paid, or God would be unjust. However, paying it means we would all be destined for Hell. But you struck on it when you said that God cannot die, because He is God. So God temporarily became a man, led a life without sin, (because He is God), and then when they killed His body, death had no effect on Him because He is also God. Thus, He rose to life again. By entrusting ourselves to His plan, we too can partake in this life that He so freely offers us.; July 24, 2009 1:06 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatulla hi wa baraktu Robert,

I believe that the Man God you are reffering to is Jesus the Christ (PBUH), correct me if i am wrong. But from your own earlier statement you said that "God cannot be born" and we know quite well that the Messiah was indeed born of the blesses Virgin Mary(Peace be upon her).

And if God is God then why does he need blood sacrifice to forgive the sins of his own creations why can he not justforgive them when they ask for fforgiveness with true heart?

Plus if he died for our sins then we can pretty much do whatever we want without any worry cauz the perfect man (PBUH) died for us right? Does that really make any sense; July 24, 2009 1:22 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abdullah,

Yes, of course God cannot be born. God existed from eternity to eternity. Choosing to temporarily take an earthly existence does not negate his previous existence. I do not understand how anyone could believe that.

The answer to your questions about blood sacrifice is that being "sorry" isn't enough. There are consequences to actions, and the consequence of sin is death. It must be this way, or else God is not Just.

Finally, no, we cannot just "do whatever we want." Once we choose to follow God, any disobedience will grieve our hearts to lead us to repentance. How do you feel when you hurt someone you love? I cannot speak for you, but for me, it pains me to know I brought sorrow to someone. In the same fashion, when I disobey God, which unfortunately will happen sometimes, I am compelled to return to Him quickly and contritely to ask forgiveness.

It is my salvation that causes me to not want to sin, it is not my lack of sin that causes salvation.; July 24, 2009 1:40 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatulla hi wa baraktu Robert,

So basically you are saying that killing aninnocent manfor absolutely no fault of his own is justice. But the all mighty all powerfull God forgiving his own creation when the creation turns to him in sinceare devotion is unjust?

why do you believe this? Does it not make simple sense that the one All Powerfull God forgives without having the limitation of blood sacrifice on him?

And what do you think Islam is? what do you think Muslims believe? etc; July 24, 2009 1:53 PM
Robert Sievers said...: Salam alaikum Abdullah,

You have the issue of justice with reference to Jesus turned around backwards. Rather than God punishing an innocent man, Jesus freely donated his life as a ransom. In other words, God did not force punishment upon Jesus, but Jesus submitted to God’s plan of salvation by obeying His Father. Rather than a judge passing sentence on an innocent person instead of you, an innocent person stepped forward to accept your sentence on your behalf.

A slightly different way to think of it is that the death of Christ was not a punishment imposed upon Jesus, it was a gift given by God through Jesus. The wrath of God is against us the sinner, and the gift of grace is thus also for us.

17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

You have mixed up what, why, and who the cross was all about.. To be clear, you reverse the cross from grace given to punishment doled out, from obedience to forced execution, and switch the ultimate act of love to injustice perpetrated on an innocent bystander.

As for knowledge of Islam, I have read the Qur'an several times, and read the Hadith from time to time. I am well aware of Islamic tenets of faith.; July 25, 2009 12:26 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatulla hi wa baraktu Robert,

I hate qouting the Bible beacuase i find it disrepectfull but i think you are aware that Jesus(PBUH) in the Bible asks God to let cup (death) pass from him, dosent sound like voluntaring to me. And on the cross, whoever was on the cross yells out "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me" Matthew 27: 45-46...again dosent sound like volunataring to me. (infact to me that dosent sound like Jesus (PBUH) at all but that's what you Bible says).

And lets say even if it was voluntered, according to your faith, it still dosent make sense beacuse why the hell should someone else die for someone elses sins that he never commited. God, if he has the power to create and define what sin is should have the poewr to forgive his own creations sins without having them give some form of blood sacrifice.

And btw this whole time you yourself reffered to Jesus (PBUH) and God all might as two different entities :)

And again does it not make simple sense that the GOD ALL MIGHTY who has the power to exist without a beggining and an end, and the power to create the entire universe without any effort can forgive his own creation when the turn in sinceare repentence instead of him being limited by the blood sacrifice of an innocent sinless and blessed man?

I dont want to win the discussion, look inside your heart and ask God which is true

And with all due respect sir you did not answer my question on what you think Islam is and what Muslims believe, you said you know what it is but didnt tell me. Im still waiting for you to reply on that bro

Peace be with you; July 26, 2009 11:03 AM
Robert Sievers said...: Salam alaikum abduallah,

Yes, Jesus asked His Father that if it were possible, to remove this cup from him. We must remember that as both God and man, such a prayer in no way negates the fact that ultimately, He had the courage to embrace His role as the salvation of mankind. John 18:11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”

Additionally, you quote where Jesus says “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.” Again, we must view God’s plan in full context. Not only is Jesus stating this because of His role as bearing sin for mankind, but He is also citing Psalm 22, letting His disciples know He is the fulfillment of the prophecy of God’s salvation.

You also ask why God cannot just forgive if we are sincerely repentant. We have to distinguish between what is possible for an all mighty God, and what is possible given His character. For example, do you believe God could send another prophet after Muhammad? Even for a Muslim, it must be recognized that there are things an all-powerful God would NOT do, in order to maintain His promises. Let me ask you the same question in reverse. Why must God forgive us just because we are sincere? Why doesn’t He need payment for sin? Even the Qur’an tells you that God is not required to forgive you even if you are repentant.

You also suggest that I refer to Jesus and God separately. I do so only in the context of talking about God’s different roles. I could just say God while man instead of Jesus if you prefer.

As for yoru last question, Mulsims believe God is tawhid, that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets (Qur’an 33:40) and the perfect example for mankind (Qur’an 33:20), that the Qur’an is Allah’s final revelation, and the five pillars. Obviously there is much more.; July 26, 2009 1:57 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu Roboert,

first of all sorry for replyin late, been havin troublwe with the comp; July 28, 2009 9:53 AM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: oops pressed enter before finishin the message

Ok, sir with all due respect you did not respond to the volunteering issue you kinda just danced around it by bringing in some prophecy and his courage etc, but the fact still remains that the two issues show that it wasnt voluntered.

And if Jesus (PBUH) THE Messiah is asking God for something (the cup to pass) and God dosent grant him, why would God answer my or any one elses prayer?

Idk why you would believe this unless your a Christian already

And its interesting how you say that you have read the Quran several times and yet dont even make a mention of the six articles of faih.

You were right sir, Islam does believe in tawhid. Tawhid is the beilef that God is one and only one, we donot associate any form of partners to him or anyintercessors between us and him. This is the core of Islam,La ilaha il Allah (There is none worthy of worship except God. This is the belief why Abraham (PBUH) was thrown to the fire, this is the reason why Moses (PBUH) went from being the prince of Egypt to being the deliverer of its slaves.
This is why Islam has survived from Adam (PBUH) to us today. This is the truth that the Muslims spread and this is why Islam is the fastest growing religion inthe world. Its plain and simple u dont have to be a theology professor to understand it. La ilaha il Allah...tats it. You live your life worshipping the one true God and he will reward you, simple and clear no 3 in 1 equals one or one god for everythign.

And you Robert know inside your heart that this is the truth, there is one and only one God and he and he alone is to be worshipped no sons no daughters no men no women, he is above us.

Whatever the reasons might be that you are clinging on to your faith, family, reputation, whateever butthis is beyond that. On the day of judgment they wont help you, dont listen to Satan ask God to open your heart.

Saying that i pray to God allmighty to guide you and show you the right path,for only he canguide.

Only you can make the choice man.

Ash hadu an La ilaha il Allah wa Muhammad an abd uhu wa rasuluhu

(I bear Witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah alone, and i bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is his slaveand his Messenger)

That's all you need bro. Just take the shahada and the Most gracious will take care of you

Salam u alaikum :); July 28, 2009 10:27 AM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abdullah,

You are right that there is only one God. On this we agree. You are also right that there is no intercessor. Since Jesus is God, God Himself is the one who judges us.

As for answered prayers, there are some prayers to which the answer is "no". As a silly example, if a man prays that God allow him a secret adulteress, this is not a prayer God will answer.

One thing I do take issue with, is that you do not know what is inside my heart. I know your religion teaches you that rejecters of Islam do so while knowing it is the truth. However, this teaching is a fabrication to make you feel secure even though you have no possibility of an eternity with God. I can tell you with 100% assurance, that I chose the truth of God/Jesus at great personal loss. I can also tell you unequivocally that I have studied Islam in great detail, and reject it squarely on merit and reason. Most importantly, when I become a Christian, I entered into a personal relationship with God almighty, and it is amazing. Like you, I am also praying that your eyes may be opened, and that you may be rescued from the lies of the deceiver.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.; July 28, 2009 11:26 AM
Abdullah Muhmmad Isa said...: Walaikumas salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu Robert,

IN the name of God, Mst gracious Most Mercifull

First of all the prayer of Jesus (PBUH) was nothing like the example that you gave.

What exactly is it about Islam that you do not like/reject bro?

How can Jesus (PBUH) be God if he prayed to God? who was he praying to then? is there a God of the God or something? And why did he refer to God as "My God and your God" and seperate from himself?

InshAllah again i pray that you see the right path

Peace be with you; July 28, 2009 11:36 AM
Anonymous said...: I have dealt with robert before he is very close minded person so I recommend you Abdullah Muhammad Isa to not waste your time in him because he just circle around his arguments with no solid base as you might have already seen.; July 28, 2009 4:24 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Peace be with you dear Annonymous,

Thank you for your concern brother but even if he is to do what you said he is to do we are still to invite him to our Islam, beacuase that's our responsibility, reverting him altough isnt. Noah (PBUH) barely had any followers after 950 years of preachin, some Prophets didnt have any atall, ppl like Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab will always be there andargue with you but our job is to still invite them for our beloved Prophets did and hence we shall too.

InshAllah on the day of judgement all my brothers and sisters get rewarded for whatever effort they put in to spread the deen of Allah.

And again i pray for Robert to become a Muslim.

TO Robert, btw im waitin for your reply bro :)

Peace and Blessings be with you both; July 29, 2009 10:17 AM
Robert Sievers said...: Salam alaikum abduallah,

Thank you for continuing our conversation. As the Qur’an says in An-Nahl : 125 “Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner;…” I see that this is your intent.

First, we were talking about the prayer of Jesus, and whether it should be answered. You are correct that I created an extreme example to prove a point. However, under an assumption that a human side of God wanted a way out fro the cross, granting such a prayer would be equally disastrous. If you think about it, Jesus says, in essence “Oh, if there were any way to forgive them, could We do it that way?”, but the answer is no. God cannot just forgive us at no cost. If He could, Jesus would not have ever even needed to ask the question; God wouldn’t even have needed to become partly human for a time in the first place.

There is only one way to even approach a subject such as how Jesus would pray or worship. We must remember that Jesus is both God and man. In such a state, the human aspect prays and – as a perfect example – worships God just as we do. However, the God aspect does not. So when we see Jesus worshipping the Father, it is that aspect of Him that is human worshipping God without ever worshiping that aspect of Himself that is also God. You can see this in the Bible in John 11:41-42; and John 12:28. We also see the example of prayer outlined in John 17. Since Jesus is both God and man, we must consider each aspect separately when we examine His actions.
Finally, you ask me what I consider wrong with Islam. This is a potentially incendiary question, but I will do my best to answer with respect. Primarily, it is because as I investigate Islam, it becomes quite apparent something is off. For example, the Qur’an says you must believe and do good deeds. However, how many good deeds must you do? 38? 234? 1,853? Does Allah have to forgive you? The Qur’an teaches He does not. Moreover, Muslims must work to attempt to earn Allah’s approval, but how can a finite being ever earn anything from an infinite God? Salvation can only come by the grace of God. It can only come because God loves us and wants us to be with Him. Therefore, these words must be true. “ 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” Notice the difference: In Islam good works and faith leads to possible salvation. In Christianity, faith leads to sure salvation and then good works. Notice the two are completely backwards from each other.; July 29, 2009 12:40 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Walai kumas salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Robert,

In the name of Allah, Most gracious Most mercifull

Robert first of all yest that is my intent :)

At this point im goin to have to ask you to look beyond the Bible and openyour mind, i would highly recommend you to ask God to open your heart.

So let me get this right, you are saying that God CANNOT forgive us without he himself sacrificing his other himself who is one earth and also on heaven the same time?

Now just think if the Bible didnt tell you this why would you believe this? God having limitations? God being half man and praying to himself? giving himself birth? 1+1+1=1?

cmon brother seriously think about it, its either that concept which really does not make sense or it is tawhid. One God and one God only, All powerfull, Most Mercifull and MOst gracious.

And sir looking at what you think is wrong with Islam and seeing what your favourite book(when you click your name it tells u that) is i really get a very strong impression that your sir have been seriously misinformed about Islam.

I dont know from where you got your info on Islam but im gonna tell you how it really is, first "Anti Christ: Islam's awaited Messiah". The title itself tells me that the author either knows nothing about Islam or is aimed at spreading mass paranoi and hatred.The Messiah of Islam is mentioned in the Quran to Jesus Christ (PBUH) by name. It dosent allude to it, it calls him "The Messiah Jesus the Son of Mary". And you should really look into the concept of Anti Christ in Islam, beacuase if you think that he is our Messiah then you are saying that Christ is Anti Christ and that make no sense. Islam givesplay by play info on how the anti christ will look what will he do, where he will be defeated and by whoom. So your favourite book sir is a bunch of absolute nonesense.; July 29, 2009 3:35 PM
Abdullah Muhammad ISa said...: Secondly, i again dont know where you got your info on salvation in Islam from but it is seriously off. In Islam if you really have true faith then you will eventually enter heaven. I cant even begin to describe how many hadiths mention of how many people will be saved from hell,even if you have "an atom's weight worth of Iman(true belief)" in your heart, you will be freed from hell.
The price Allah set for Jannah (Paradise) is too high for anyone to pay for with their own Good deeds and this is very clearly mentioned by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and this applies for him too. So if even the Prophet's Good deeds arent enough then its pretty much hopeless for us right? WRONG Allah being the Most gracious gives us jannah for only trying. We do good deeds to increaase our ranks in jannah. There isnt a concrete no of how many good deeds one needs to do beacasue it os God's Grace that will deliver him not his Good deeds. There are numerous a hadith stressing this fact. For example Allah will ask a man who is in the highest level of hell (Being tortured the least) "if i gvae you all the wealth in the world and i doubled it, would you pay that for a ransom out of here" (The words arent exact, but you get the point" and he will say yes. Then Allah will say "i asked of you much lesser thanthat, i only asked you to worship me and me alone with associating any partners". So sir the idea of faith + good deeds = possible salvation is absolutely absurd, it Allah's grace and majesty that will give us slavation. And btw sir the idea of only faith leading to slavation is alien even to Christianity for the Bible says that Matthew 7:21- 23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Brother look beyond what the media wants to feed you, there has always been propaganda and unfortunately most people fall prey to it and dont bother looking further.

You have been chosen to talk to actuall Muslims and they telling you what their religion is not what the media tells you it is.; July 29, 2009 3:36 PM
Abdullah Muhammad ISa said...: Brother again i pray to Allah to open your heart and guide you to the complete truth.

"Ash hadu an la ilaha il Allah wa ash hadu anna Muhammad an abd uhu wa rasul u hu"

"I bear witness that noen is none worthy of worship except Allah alone and i bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is his slave and his messenger"

That is the turth brother, that is what aprox. 50,000 Americans say every year and enter into Islam (Along with the 1.84 billion who say it multiple times every day).

Brother you know inside your heart the Submitting to GOd (Islam) is the truth, just take the shahada.

Inshalla Allah leads you to the truth and away from falsehood.

Peace and blessing b with you; July 29, 2009 3:36 PM
Abdullah Muhammad SIa said...: P.S : sorry for the 3 different post, but it woudnt let me post it all into one post; July 29, 2009 3:38 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abdullah

Again, you can tell me what you think is in my heart, but you are dead wrong. In my heart, I know Islam is a clever way to keep you from finding the true God. For example, let's look at Antichrist. Now, I am not talking about Al-Dajaal. He is someone different. Let me share with you the characteristics of Antichrist as portrayed in the Bible.

1. He will be establish a new world order founded on a false religion. (Daniel 7:23-24; Revelation 13:7)
2. He will change the set times and laws. (Daniel 7:25)
3. He will declare himself God in the temple of Jerusalem. (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
4. He will be worshipped by all who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 13:8)
5. He goes to war with the remaining Jews and Christians. (Revelation 12:17)
6. He establishes a 7-year peace treaty with the Jews. (Daniel 9:27)
7. He will preside over a 10 nation coalition. (Daniel 7:24)

Does this sound familar to you? It should. Al–Mahdi is the name given to a prophetic figure within Islam. Muslims believe he will return just before the end of days. By scouring the Hadith, you can come to a picture of Al-Mahdi that will allow you to recognize his coming. The following is a brief snapshot of the characteristics of Al-Mahdi.

1. Al-Mahdi will lead a revolution, establishing a new world order founded on Islam.
2. Al-Mahdi will institute Sharia law, part of which is the Islamic calendar.
3. Al-Mahdi will rule from Jerusalem.
4. Al-Mahdi will be the spiritual leader for Muslims.
5. Al-Mahdi will either kill or convert the remaining Jews and Christians of the day.
6. Al-Mahdi will make a peace treaty with the Jews for a period of either 7 or 9 years.
7. Al-Mahdi will preside over a ten member council.

It is true that not only is the Antichrist coming, but you have been tricked into awaiting his advent and will herald it with excitement and optimism as never before seen. When Antichrist enters the scene, Islamic eschatology has been constructed to allow Muslims, as a whole, to welcome him with open arms as Imam Al-Mahdi, the awaited rightly guided one.

It's set as a trap, and you are the pray. Which will you choose to believe. A) The bible was corrupted in such a way ot be the exact reverse of true end time events before the Qur'an was revealed?, or B) the Qur'an was set up as a perfect "anti-parallel" in order to create a completely reversed prophetic picture for you to believe in? Which scenario makes more sense to you?; July 29, 2009 5:03 PM
Robert Sievers said...: As for the issue of what God can or cannot do, there are many things God cannot do. For example, God cannot cease to exist. If God is Just, then as part of His essence, God cannot be unjust.

Now for the big question, can a truly limitless God choose to impose limits on Himself? If you say no, then you admit He is limited. (because you just described something he cannot do) If you answer yes, then you admit that He could become man for a time.; July 29, 2009 5:10 PM
Truth Seeker said...: Abdullah Muhammad Isa, I want to jump in and post a quick comment to our friend Robert. Robert good job by giving source from Bible about characteristics of Antichrist and not a single source for Al-Mahdi OH! you couldn't get one because the site you copy and pasted this info doesn't give one make sense.

Lets see first three quotes you gave

1. He will be establish a new world order founded on a false religion. (Daniel 7:23-24; Revelation 13:7)

Aah! this can be Jesus (PBUH) from your teaching because according to Jews he establish a new world order. OH! I shouldn't say Jesus (PBUH) I should say your church or Paul.

2. He will change the set times and laws. (Daniel 7:25)

Thanks St. Paul, you seem to that a lot by saying you are allowed to get pork, no circumcision, calling Prophet a God etc.

3. He will declare himself God in the temple of Jerusalem. (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Well it looks like from your teaching that Jesus (PBUH) is the one who did that.

Well I come to the conclusion that its all talking about you people not Al-Mahdi.

Next time robert do some research and tell your anti-islamic website people to do good job of lying because this ain't working here.; July 29, 2009 6:53 PM
Robert Sievers said...: Dear Truth Seeker,

I understand why you are so angry. It isn't easy to learn everyting you have been taught is a huge deception created to give you an eternal destiny apart from God. I would be angry too.

However, all of the points I have given are from respected Islamic authors. Would you like me to provide them for you, or is your mind so closed I would be wasting my time?

I care about you too much to let you think these are from Christian sources.

1) Quote from Ayatullah Baqir al-Sadr and Ayatullah Muratda Mutahhari, The Awaited Savior, (Karachi, Islamic Seminary Publications), prologue, p. 1

2) Qur’an 9:36

3) Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammd ‘Arif, p.40

4) Abdulrahman Kelani, The Last Apocalypse, An Islamic Perspective, (Fustat, 2003), pp. 34-35

5) Ayatollah Ibrahim Amini in Al-Imam Al-Madhi: The Just Leader of Humanity.

6) Tirmidhi as quoted by Mohammed Ali Ibn Zubair Ali, Signs of Qiyamah (Islamic Book Service, New Delhi, 2004), p. 42 and Prof. M. Abdullah, Islam, Jesus, Mehdi, Qadiyanis and Doomsday, (Adam, New Delhi, 2004), p. 54

I don't have the citation for number 7 handy, I will have to do further research to find where I saw that.

There are many others, such as Ka’b al Ahbar, an early translator of the Hadith noted that Al-Mahdi was referenced in Revelation 6:1, a clear passage referring to the Anti-Christ.

There are many many more of these. Please please stop and consider that you have been set up. While you are alive, it isn't too late.; July 29, 2009 7:28 PM
Truth Seeker said...: Robert you are such a loser dude do you even know who you are quoting from? Let me give you chance to reply because I want to see how you will reply because I guessing you copy and pasting.; July 30, 2009 3:04 PM
Abdullah Muhammad ISa said...: As Salam u alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Robert and Truthseeker,

In the name of Allah, most gracious most merciful

To Truth seeker, Borther im gonna let you continue your Anti Christ discussion and not intereptbut i do request that we be nice and kind to him :)

To Dear Robert,
First of all your Mahdi = Anti Christ argument is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have ever heard in my life lol

Secondly i want to appluade you on doing what Christian debators seem to be amazing at, MOVING COMPLETELY AWAY from a subject when you realise you cant confront it

You wrote this whole argument about the Anti christ thing, and franly the argument absolutely had no ground whatsoever, but you didnt even bother addressing the salvation response which you found to be your main problem with Islam.

And for you limited God vs unlimited. God canand does put limitations on himself, not beacuse he has to but beacuase he wants to. In a very famous hadith Prophet Muhammad (SAW) tells us that the right of the creator on the creation is that they worship him and him alone without any partners or intercessors, and the rights of the creation on the creator is that he not punish them unjustly. And Prophets speak of what God tells them so God has put this limitation on himself. And then you say then God can become a man, GOD CAN DO ANYTHING but the creation cannot and i repeat cannot contain even the right of its creator. This is veryclearly again shown in another Muslims story when Moses (PBUH) requested to see God and God told him that this earth cant bear his sight...(the story goes further, look it up).

Robert, no matter how hard you try 3 in 1 or 1=1=1=1, "Three persons in one substance" simply does not make sense when put in front of the simple concept of One God, that it no sons no daughters no half God no baby Gods or man God NADA; July 30, 2009 5:13 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Sia said...: Robert donot be of those on whose hearts "Allah has seat a seal" if you are going to go back to anti Islamic websites and Bible for everything then you are a prisoner to them and a defier of God.

How on earth can you expect me or anyone to believe in Bible that so explicitly bastardises our beloved prophets. Want examples
David (PBUH) is called a muderer and adulterer
Noah (PBUH) is called a Drunkard several times
Lot (PBUH) is said to have gotten drunk and commited incest
JESUS THE CHRIST (PBUH) is clearly shown as a racist (The story of the cannonite women who came to him for helf)

The exampels go on and on and on, we love and honour these men, they are the best of the best of the best. No way on earth i can believe something that so clearly insults them.

seriously brother look inside your heart and ask GOD for guidence, if that is what you want or think you have.

I dont know whay or why but you are afraid to make a change inyour life, and hence you are trying your hardest to defend something that cant be defended.

The birds are Muslims, the trees the animals the sun the moon everything is except for us humans and jinns. You yourself were born a Muslim Robert, pure and sinless but Christianity tells me NO i inherit some sin..cmonn man seriously

just take the shahada man and Allah himself will take care of you

"Ash hadu an La ilaha il Allah wa Ash hadu an la Muhammadan abduhu wa rasul u hu"

I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, with no partners adn i bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is his slave and his messenger.

Brother saying that again, i pray to Allah to open thy heart, free you of the devil's whispers and lead you to the straight path.
Ameen

peace, prayers and Blessing be with y'all; July 30, 2009 5:14 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: sorry messed up my name in the second post,but yeah that's still me; July 30, 2009 5:16 PM
Abdullah Myhammad Isa said...: Hey guys srry, there;s a few typos in the posts above that rlly mess up the point. First in the first post when i say the creation cant bear the tight of its creator, its supposed to be Sight.

And the 1=1=1=1 is supposed to be 1+1+1=1; July 30, 2009 7:44 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abdullah,

You are correct that I didn't answer your question appropriate. Please forgive me as there are many topics on the table.

As per the issue of salvation, the Qur'an says in Al-Araf 8-9 "And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful; And as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is light those are they who have made their souls suffer loss because they disbelieved in Our communications."

This reads to me that the issue is how many good deeds you have. You have suggested otherwise, that faith is enough, so please clarify this if I have a misunderstanding of this verse.

As for the trinity, think of it this way. You have one soul, one mind, and one body, but you are not three people. How can 1+1+1=1 for you?

Also, consider God's creation, the universe. It is made of time, space, and matter. Notice that space isn’t one third of the universe; but rather it permeates all of it. Neither is time one third of the universe, it is intrinsic to all of it. So too matter is the whole universe. This one universe is made up of all three, yet each one is the whole. Space and matter have no meaning outside of time, and neither would matter or time have any meaning without space to exist in. Space and time could not make a universe without matter to fill it. In other words, without space, where would we put it? Without matter, what would we put in it. Without time, when would we put it? All three comprise the universe and are requirements of it, and fill the whole universe, yet all three make up the one and only one universe that we live in.

Would we expect the architect to exhibit any of His personality within His architecture?; July 31, 2009 5:35 AM
Robert Sievers said...: Truth Seeker,

I would be happy to tell you about the authors of these references. First, tell me where the Qur'an instructs you to debase, demean, and insult me. If you will answer that question for me, then I will answer your question for you.; July 31, 2009 5:37 AM
zack said...: Hi Robert,

The Quran doesn't encourage to insult people, but the problem here is with the way you write your posts. You need to take some time to write what you write because most of the time your comments don't make any sense, no aspersion intended. Please use your head to understand/analyze before you make any statements. I hope you don't get me wrong.; July 31, 2009 9:30 AM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As salam u alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,

In the name of Allah, Most gracious most mercifull

To zack, Good reply bro

To Robert,
First of all how you doin bro, everything arright?

Now the trinity issue, i heard this allegories of like the one you gave several times before like the egg one and the water one.

These allegories btw have be condemed as heresy by several Christian denominations but anyhow, do you see what you are doin..you are bringing the creator down to the level of his creation. The soul, mind body, these are just terms we use to describe things, body is a physical entity, mind is metephorical for the physical brain and the soul also metaphorical for the heart. But they are different self subsisting persons. In the trinity God the Father is God the Son who is theholy ghost but at the same time they are different people and all three of them are together one person, who beget each other and pray to each other and ascend to each other....which means they do all that to themselves.

Do you see what im saying bro, it does not make sense. You can use all the analogies you want but itaint gonna work. Historically this doctrine did not exist in the early church, it didnt exist for the Jew it still dosent. But just logically it does not make sense.
And i cant accept a God that doesnt even make sense of how many he is?

Campare that to Islam's tawhid. Allah (Arabic for The God) is one and only one, not 3 in one or whatever, he begets not nor is he beggoten. Allah is eternal and there is none like him. Simple

And now the verse that you quated. Without any further exterior explanations lets just look at the verse itself. "(they) suffer loss beacuase they disbelieved in our communications" right there it shows you that they arent believers andif they arent believers then there "Good deeds" are useless on the day of judgment. Again i dont think you knowthe concept of Good deeds in Islam, if a non Muslim does a good deed in this world then he might get rewarded here but in the day of judgement the deed is useless its like it dosent exist. For a deed to be excepted first the person has to be Muslim, the intention should be to do it for Allah alone, it has to be done in the method approved by theProphet and it shoudnt be followed with a act of shirk. Ok so incase of the people reffered to in the verse, fir them their deeds are non existent.

Ok, and sir i would request you to go read my response again because i never suggested that fiath alone is enough, infact i even said that fiath alone is even alien to christianity. What i said wasthat a person who has faith will EVENTUALLY go into jannah. That doesnt mean he wont be punished first in hell for his sins, he will be if he hasnt repented or his repentence wasnt excepted. And the concept of good deeds isalso very different in Islam, everything you do can be a good deed like for example sleeping, if you follow the atticats of sleeping then you are rewarded for that, eating same thign, going to the bathroom, having sex even! And if you are a true Muslim then you would want to follow the guidelines of the Prophets beacuase you know that that getsyou firther away from hell and increases you ranks in jannah. Its not a surpirse that the prophets will bein the highest level of jannah right? why beacuse they were the perfect example of the right. And the closer we are to them in this life, the closer we are to them in jannah. Now ofcourse we cant reach the level of the Prphets or even thir orignal disciples (the sahaba of Muhammad (PBUH) and the hawariyun (dsiciples) of Jesus (PBUH)) but God in his grace can grant it to us for tryin our hardest.; July 31, 2009 12:05 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Islam is a complete method of life, not just a belief system or a sunday religon. A Muslims follows ISlam in every walk of life. And if you think that we dont need a divine law to lead ourlives then you are talking atheism beacuase by ourselves humans are uselss and will always have conflict. Lets look at Africa, the country where Islam is most prevalant or even catholosism AIDs is almost not present but in the heavy evangelical countries its off the charts.

Everythign in the universe abides by laws and does not break it, why shoudnt humans have law? now we unlike the rest of the creation have a choice to follow or not follow the law but that doesnt mean that you dont have to follow the law, you can choose not to but itll have consequences.

So there a little more detailed explanation on the faith and good deeds issue, sorry if it was too long.

Robert, bro i would ask you to go back and read the second post in my last response beacuase you absolutely didnt answer the question of following prophets that are worse than their surroinding ( gave some examples and all) so please take a look at that and comeback. Beacuse i for one woudnt want to follow the biblcal image of the prophets.

Brother saying that again, i pray to Allah to open thy heart, free you of the devil's whispers and lead you to the straight path.
Ameen

peace, prayers and Blessing be with y'all; July 31, 2009 12:05 PM
Truth Seeker said...: Thanks zack, well robert I guess zack just answered your question and regarding authors of these references well I don't need them since they don't been anything to me.; July 31, 2009 6:09 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abduallah,

Christianity is also a complete way of life, and not a Friday religion. Just because we live under grace does not mean we don't have rules that we follow. For example, not committing adultery is a rule we are to follow.

What I hear you saying though is that in Islam you are to believe, and if you believe, you will gain paradise regardless of how many good deeds you have. This brings us back full circle. I understood you to criticize this view because a person could just do whatever they wanted, and be sincerely sorry for it later, and always get forgiveness. Again, I am having difficulty following what you view of salvation is.

As for the prophets, they were not perfect. Some of them did some pretty bad acts. They are role models only in those things they did well, not their failures. As for Lot, well, he isn't even a prophet, so that is a whole other story.

I will be gone for several days, but God willing, we will talk again.; August 1, 2009 6:17 AM
zack said...: Hi Robert,

I have a question with regards to your claim about Christianity being a complete way of life, here they are:

1. You said Christians are not supposed to commit adultery right? Could you please define adultery from the Bible?

2. Could you please let us know what is the punishment for committing adultery according to the bible?

In Islam you have to believe and do good deeds. The more good you do the more reward you will get.

So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it and whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it. [Quran 99:7-8]

As far as the prophets are concerned, I am sure that you will be punished in the hereafter for talking ill about them, unless you sincerely ask for forgiveness.

Peace be upon him who follows guidance!; August 1, 2009 8:25 AM
Anonymous said...: good points zack, if Christianity is a complete way of life then it should be able to answer the questions you asked.; August 2, 2009 5:53 AM
Robert Sievers said...: Adultery is when sexual relations occur when one or both parties is married. However, there is also fornication, where neither party is married, which is also forbidden.

Anyway, rather than me explain the punishment, let's look at what Jesus said.

3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."

There is much to learn here.; August 4, 2009 6:03 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

In the name of Allah
Most gracious Most mercifull

Sorry i didnt reply for so long guys but anyways

Robert, For the sins issue. Please Please go back and read my posts. Brother Zack answered the question quite well but sinceyou stilldont seem to be getting it let me break it down even further.

- Anybody who truly believs in La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad an rasul Allah and the six articles of faith will EVENTUALLY go to jannah. But if his sinswerent forgiven then in the grave he will be tortured andin the hell fire.

-More the good deeds, higher the ranks in jannah. Whatgood deeds are i have already explained, please go back and read that. Ill make it more dtailed if you want me to.

No the "do whatever you want issue". a true Muslim fears Allah's hell fire and knows that death can comewhen he's least expecting it, so he tries his hardest to avoid commiting any sins. Nowofcourse he isnt perfect but the Most Gracious Allah keeps forgiving your sins for so manydifferent things, ill ellaborate if you want. But the person does not commit sins beacuase heknowsthat commiting the sins will bring him closer to hell fire and "worst indeed is that of all places". Like for example if "Muslims" with weak imam thinks that he can commited adultery and then ask for forgiveness he'll be all set. But firstof all may be his repentence isnt sinceare inwhich case its really useless and secondly may be he simply dosent have time! May be he dies while commiting the sin, then what? he Screwed!

Let me give you an example. lets say there is a kid named Adam. Adam was born into a Muslim family but didnt really grow up a practicing Muslim. Adam grows up doing all thethigns his peers do, drinking, fornication, clubbing etc etc etc. But one day his best freind dies of drug overdose. Now Adam starts thinking aboutlife, its meaning its purpose. And eventually he comes to Islam, or comes back to ISlam and sincearly repents then Allah will forgive his sins. But if he is a true Muslim he wont commit the sins again or try his hardest not to. So the "do whatever you want" does not apply.

A true Muslims or a Muemin i should say loves Allah and loves his messngers he wont even want to do anythign to disappoint them. The Prophets were the perfect examples for mankind to follow, the closeryou are to their example in this life, the closer you will be to them in jannah (they are in the highest levels of jannah).

Islam is complete guidence ini every single walk of life. in eating, in drinking, wearing your clothes, weraing yourshows, going to the bathroom, cutting your nails, every single thing. Atrue Muslim will be delighted by the more good deeds he does and he always wants to do more. And when you are reading the Quran and the hadith andimplementing it in your life, commiting sins is very very hard.; August 5, 2009 9:40 AM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: Regarding the Prophets (PBUT). I have already shown and you have agreed that we need or have a law. Now who brought this law to us? the prophets did by their teaching and behaviour.If the prophets themselves are hypocrites and break their own law and are worse thancommon people then why shoould i follow these peopele? I believe that adultery is wrong and racism is wrong. But your Bible Prophets are clearly shown commiting Adultery (David) and Clear racists (Jesus). Solomon s supposed to ba prophet of God but he builds houses of worship of pagan Gods and his heart gets attached to them. If God has spoken to these menin someway shape or form and they are acting so messed up then what about hte general population to whom he hasnt spoken.

Again brother i will askyou to pray to God All mighty to open your heart show you the true guidence. You dont needto come up with complicated theories to justify things. Islam is simple

-A really really confusing concept of God or God in a God v/s Islam's tawhid of Only one God withoutany partners or intercessors.

-Really really messed up prophets v/s Infallable andperfect prophets who are example for people to follow

-Some practice but mostly with v/s compleete guidence in practice driven by faith

-Babies born with sins and go to hell unless baptised v/s Babies born pure and sinless

-Encorporating pagan holoidays (Christmas, Easter etc)and forms of worship (iconcism) v/s strict orignal Idol free Monotheism

It goes on andon and on It's really really not complicated.

Islam is thereligion that theentire creation is of, the birds the plants, the animals the sky the sun the moon everything! only us humans and the jinns are given the choice of picking it for ourselves.

This is the religion that has surv ived since the beggining of time. More than 4000 years ago Namrod tried to stop Islam by preventing its prophet (Abraham (PBUH)) from being born but he failed andSIlam lived. The Pharoh tried the same (For Moses (PBUH)) but he failed and ISlam lived. The Jews tried to crucify our Messiah(PBUH) but Allah raised him upto himself and Islam lived. The Arab Pagans tortured the Muslims and tried to kill our final Prophet (PBUH) but they failed and Islam lived. This is the invincible true religion of God.

If you just want something to believe then Christianity or any other belief system does the job but(eventough it might not make sense) if you want to live your life with guidence and submit to God then Islam is the only true religion.

"As hadu anla ilaha il Allah, Muhammad anabduhu wa rasul uhu"

I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah alone and i bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is His slave and his Messenger

That's all you need Robert, that's what you are resenting but that is the truth.

Allah i smy witness that whatever might be preventing you from proclaiming that onetruth if you ask him with true heart for guidence he will give it to you and remove your difficulties in this world and the next.

Saying that i pray to Allah to make you not of those on whose "hearts Allah has seat a seal" and to free you of the devil'swhispers and to show you the turh (Islam) and tomake you accept it.
Ameen

Salam u alaikumwarahmatullahi wa baraktu; August 5, 2009 9:41 AM
Robert Sievers said...: Salam alaikum Abdullah,

Your note has struck on a number of points, so I am going to discuss them in brief order.

The prophets were only the messengers of God’s law. God was the author. As such, the prophets, as all of us, did not always follow it to the letter, and sometimes erred badly. As for following them, no, we should not be following what the prophets actually did, we should follow God’s law itself, not those who brought it.

Your intimation about Jesus being a racist shows a lack of understanding of the passage you refer to and his mission. If you want to discuss the incident, we should do in another thread.

Like you pray for me, so also I am praying for you to follow truth.

You misunderstand the role of childhood baptism, and again, that is an entirely different discussion, that we could have if you wish. You can email me at sievers2501 at yahoo dot com.

Recognitions that people need a savior regardless of who they are vs. a suggestion that humans are divided into two classes of believers.

A religion free of idols vs one that co-opted rituals from the Arabian moon God.

A religion that believe in God only vs. one that requires saying a creed containing reference to a man.

Worshiping a God who demands justice rather than one who just sweeps wrongdoing under the rug.

I could go on and on. There is no record of Islam ANYWHERE other than the Qur’an, which ought to make you wonder, but for some reason it does not. I pray that you start examining the facts and following the one true monotheistic religion, Christianity.; August 5, 2009 4:42 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: As salaum u alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,

Bismillah ir rahmanir rahim

Dear Robert,
If your perception of the Prophets is true then why should ieven think that they are Prophets? And not just somepower wanting tyrants

Regarding the Jesus (PBUH) racist incident, you might call it whatever you want but calling someone and her people "dogs"to me aand to any rational personis racism, especially when you say that you are sent to the lost sheep of Israel and its notfair to give their message to the dogs.

Im gonnna take your word thati misunderstand baptism. But regardless of that, the conceptof orignal sin is still present in Christianity v/s Islam's orignal innocence. And i for one would think thatbabies are pure rather than sinners when they come outof hte womb.

Humans do need saviours that's why Allah sent 124000 Prophets if you dont know sir.

And classification of Believers into two i think you are reffering to Muslims versus Muemins. I dont think you even realise what the difference of the two is. A Muslim is anyone who believes in the six articles of faith but aMuemin is a true believer who has submitted himself to Allah, Allah alone knows who is a muemin, a Muslim or Mohsin. These things arent for us to decide so idk why its even a consideration here.

No person in their rational mind would say that three different persons are in reality on God. This isnt a question of alter egos. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons and you really have to be illogical insome way to think that they are reallyone.

History is mywitnessthat the Doctrine of trinity wasnt created until thecouncil of niceain the 4th centuery, you might argue that there's verses supporting this in thebible but that still doesnt explain whyJesus or his early discples didnt make this a doctrine in the first place.

If Jesus was God he wouldve atleast said "I am God", not illude to it in someway. Why did the plan of salvation suddenly change after being one thing for thousands of years even tough the Old testament tells us that "God does not Chnage"

Christianity developedover the centuries, laws were taken out and added in asthe Priests and bishops found convinient. For example usury wasa sin in the medivial Chruch but today its not.

The gospels,you might say they are inspired but that doesnt change the fact that the authors are historians who wrote annonomously and the church later gave the authors names.

Islam on the other hand come form the Quran and the Haith only. It cannot be manipulated. The Prophet himself made this clear that its Allah's religion and not his so he cannot make any changes in it. The 23 years Muhammad(SAW)'s Prophethood is the entire source of the final Islam. But Christianity is abunchof book anda bunch of doctrines developed over centuries by different indivuduals.

Everything you answer is coming from a Biblical perspective. I asked you what you find wrong with Islam and you said the method of salvation. I made several posts on that and you dont seem tobe commenting on that issue no more so i take that you are settled on that issue.

Islam is simple bro, Muhammad (PBUH) is undeniable, the Quran could notbe written by a man. Theseare extemply broad topics so i wont go in detailto those.; August 6, 2009 12:22 PM
Abdullah Muhammad Isa said...: You really seem to be trying onlyto defend your faith with a open mind in any form. So i dont wanna argue for thesake of arguing so i will say to you what Allah commanded his prophet to say to the pagans

"O ye that reject Faith!

I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine. "

I still pray to God All Mighty to openyou r eyes, free you of the devil's whispers and show you true guidence.

But my prayer really means nothing beacusew "Those who Allah has miguided there is none to guide" and "On their hearts Allah has seat a seal"

Its up to you to chose if that'swhat you want to be.

I request you to read the Quran with an open mind, cover to cover andnot from an Anti Ilamic website. You really got nothingto loose cauz if its the truth and you embrace it then you win, if its the truth andyou dont embrace it then you can say thatto Allah on the day of judgment that i read you book and it didnt openmy heart. If its not the truth then it dosent hurt to know about the the religion that claims a quarter of theworld's population.

go to a mosque, ask them for a Quran with good commentry. Ask God to show you the truth, whatever it may be and then read the Quran with anopenmind.

InshAllah i prayagain that you do that.

If you ever read the Quran the way i said above and after that you have problems with it or Islam and/or Islam, ill bemore than happy to answer/discuss

AbdullahMuhammadIsa@gmail.com

Salam u alaikum wa rahmatullahiwa barakatu :); August 6, 2009 12:23 PM
Robert Sievers said...: salam alaikum abdullah.

God made it very clear how to tell whether someone was a prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:21"You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' 22"When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Incidentally, the Qur'an contains no fulfilled prophecy.

It is funny, because I don't understand how anyone can logically believe that God cannot be two places at the same time. How can an infinite God not be both in heaven on earth at once. How could he have such a limitation. That makes no logical sense to me.

Historically, the disciples did preach the triune nature of the one true God. However, only the Qur'an denies this.

In the end, you are very correct that you do not worship who I worship. I worship God. You suggest reading the Qur'an with an open mind. I have read the Qur'an twice, and if you have read the Bible twice through, then good for you. If you have not, then you find yourself arguing for a course of action that you yourself have not taken. If the Bible is true, you have nothing to lose; no reason not to check it out for yourself.; August 6, 2009 4:17 PM
zack said...: Shame on you Robert,

I told you to define Adultery from the Bible and you failed to do so. Why do you keep posting your opinions? Your opinions will be thrown in Rubbish bin if not backed up by any verses. Do you understand that?

Now please, for the sake of Christ, please define Adultery and Fornication form the Bible?; August 7, 2009 3:00 AM
Robert Sievers said...: zack,

Words mean things. While the Bible is not a dictionary, you can read the first 5 books of the Bible, which contain the law, and learn what adultery is. It is explicity discussed in Deut 22 if you must know.; August 7, 2009 10:05 AM
Abdurrazzaq said...: lol Robert, you really dont answer questions and are the king of contradictions.

If the law of the old testament is still valid then why arent Christians today circumcised? why do they eat pork? why dont they wear turbans like Moses(PBUH)? why dont you put your faces on the floor like so many Biblical prophets did? why dont you grow outyour beards like every prophet..including the one you call the son of God?; August 9, 2009 4:57 AM
Anonymous said...: Robert,

Can you please provide reference from the bible where fornication is prohibited?; August 10, 2009 3:01 PM
Robert Sievers said...: anonymous,

Fornication is expressly forbidden in Acts 15:21, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and Hebrews 13:4.

Dear abdurrazzaq,

Several of things you mentioned are not even in the Mosaic law. If you want to really discuss this, by all means select one, quote where it is forbidden, and we will discuss it.; August 10, 2009 3:36 PM
Abdurrazaq said...: Robert,

Pork forbidden,
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8

Turban,
Then they fastened a blue cord to it to attach it to the turban, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Exodus 39:31

Prayin with face on floor
“Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’”
Matthew 26:39

And the beard, nevereverhave a seen a Christian portrayal of Jesus (PBUH) without a bear...do you want to say otherwise?

Now byno means am i saying that just cauz we follow these practices and they are in the Bible means that they is 100 percent true....im just askin why you guys claim to follow christ and pick on some foggy quoate and build a religion on thatbut completely ignore the clear ones.; August 11, 2009 9:10 AM
Robert Sievers said...: abdurrazzaq,

Somebody has been giving you misleading information. Let me clear up the deception that has been fed to you.

1. Let's look at the verse before the one you cited in order to get clarification. Deut 14:7"Nevertheless, you are not to eat of these among those which chew the cud, or among those that divide the hoof in two: the camel and the rabbit and the shaphan, for though they chew the cud, they do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you." Notice that the camel is mentioned. Yet the Qur'an says the camel is legal. Qur’an 022.036 The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful. So I could ask you the same question. Why does your religion not obey the dietary law? The reason I, as a Christian, do not is because Jesus twice told us that this particular part of the law no longer had relevance for us. (Matthew 15:17 and Acts 10) Yet somehow you accuse Christians of doing something (eating pork) that Muslims do from the VERY same verse (eat camel)

2. The turban spoken of here is part of the priestly garments for Levites who ministered in the sanctuary. Since God/Jesus has not yet returned to earth, and since I am not a Levite, I don't understand why you think I should follow this. It would be inappropriate for me to represent myself in such a religious role. Did someone really tell you this law was applicable for all Christians? If so, I highly recommend you find someone else to explain Christianity to you.

3. Jesus sometimes prayed with His face to the ground, and sometimes He did not. For example, in John 11:41, Jesus "raises His eyes" to pray. So too, as Christians, we pray in various positions depending upon the circumstance.

4. I have seen many pictures of Jesus without a beard. For example, in Istanbul, Turkey, -- an Islamic country -- at the Hagia Sophia, there are quite a few. Nowhere are we commanded to grow beards.

I hope this clears up the gross misinformation you had been given about Christianity.; August 11, 2009 11:01 AM

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