Q: Is the Quran we have today the same as that was revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him)? What proof do we have to ensure this? I heard it's only recorded by Muslim historians and not non-Muslims? Is the Arabic spoken today in Arabia the same as Quran? If so, why do we have so many different translations of the Quran? Please help.
A: Salam, dear questioner.
Let me first of all thank you for such a creative and innovative question that reflects your critical mind and your real search for ascertaining the authenticity of everything around you.
In fact, we are required to do so, since Almighty Allah has gifted us with minds to use in finding the truth and working hard to achieve the highest level of certainty about our beliefs. In our quest for this, we should stick to objectivity and be totally dedicated to truth.
Promise of Protection
You asked if the Quran we have today is the same one which was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The simple and the clear answer is yes. It is the same exact one without any addition or omission and the evidence is self-evident inside the Quran as well as outside it.
Let me give you some explanation here. The first place we should go to ascertain the fact about the authenticity of the Quran should be the Quran itself. We can simply read in the Quran such a great and unfailing pledge in which Almighty Allah says:
*{Surely, We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.}* (Al-Hijr 15:9)
Logically speaking, the Quran being the final message of Allah is going to be unchangeable till the Day of Judgment. For this job to be fulfilled, it has to remain the same because if, God forbids, any change occurs, there will be no point behind its being the final message of Allah.
Therefore, Almighty Allah Who knows the hearts and the nature of human beings has taken the responsibility of guarding and protecting the Quran from any change, so that it keeps on fulfilling its job and guiding all human beings till the Last Day.
Unanimity of Muslim Scholars
The unanimity of Muslim scholars throughout the ages has also proved that the Quran we have is the same which the Prophet had. The same holds true for some unbiased Orientalist scholars who studied the Quran and found the style and the wording exactly the same as that which was common during the time of the Prophet himself.
Another point that needs reflection is that the Quran contains many scientific miracles that were proven to be correct only recently; it therefore stands to reason that had there been any change in the Quran, such verses or many of them, would have disappeared and even changed, and thus proven wrong.
Oral Transmission
Moreover, the Quran has been handed down through generations and centuries by means of oral transmission alongside the written text and that one of the unique merits of Muslims is their ability of maintaining an unbroken chain proving the authenticity of their texts throughout all these centuries.
Many people memorize the Quran in various parts of the world. All of them meet in one place at one time and recite the same Quran. This leaves no doubt that the Quran we have today is the exact one that was recited fifteen hundred years ago when the Prophet was alive.
Language of the Quran
Another logical proof is the decline in the level of the Arabic language and the spoken dialects which we find everywhere in the Arab world.
The deterioration in the level of the spoken Arabic, although affecting the tongues of people, did not in fact come close to the Quranic text. It is because of this that we find the Quranic text being unique in the way it is recited and the way it is written.
It is different in the written form as well as the oral form from the other written or oral texts.
Why? Because it was protected against the factors of time and space.
And for this job to be completed, Allah has enabled many scholars who specialized in the Quranic text whether in the written or the oral form and made their vocation in life to transmit it as exactly as it existed in the Prophet's life.
Quranic Manuscripts
Another physical proof showing the authenticity of the Quran is the large number of Quranic manuscripts dating back to the early times of Islam. One of the manuscripts existing today is the personal copy of the mus-haf (physical copy of the Quran) that belonged to Caliph Uthman Ibn Affan.
This copy still carries the traces of the blood of Uthman who was killed when he was reciting the Quran not long ago after the death of the Prophet. The manuscript has been examined not only by Muslims but also by non-Muslims, and it exists till today as standing evidence of the authenticity of the Quran.
By bringing this manuscript and comparing it with all other manuscripts that have been written through different generations in different parts of the Muslim world, we can see how exactly the same they are.
We can also notice the difference between the text written there and the normal way of writing Arabic words and the question will rise: why did not the normal way of writing affect the way of writing the Quranic text? The simple answer to this is that the uniqueness of the Quran made it very special and as a way of keeping this specialty is keeping it in the same formula it was firstly written.
Challenging the Quran
A long time ago, the Quran challenged people to produce something similar to one verse or ten verses or one surah of it. The challenge was not met and people are still unable to meet the challenge which means the text is still the same miraculous one that was recited during the Prophet's lifetime.
Of course, some biased non-Muslim Orientalists have tried their best to raise misconceptions regarding the authenticity of the Quranic text we have today.
These attempts have been very old indeed and all of them have failed to prove anything.
Why So Many Translations?
As for the question why there are many different translations of the Quran, in fact, this has nothing to do with the text.
Rather, the translations are merely human attempts to understand the Divine text. Because they are merely human and not Divine, such attempts will be limited and imperfect.
Therefore, we can have many translations, since all of them are human contributions and attempts of conveying the message contained in the original text which was Divinely worded and arranged.
None of these translations is perfect, protected, or even considered to be "the Quran"; only the Arabic text which is inimitable is considered the Divine revelation.
I hope this answers your question. Please stay in touch.
Salam. (Source: islamonline)
"Allah!
None has the right to be worshipped but He, the Ever Living, the One Who
sustains and protecs all the exists. It is Who has sent down the Book (Al
Quran) to you with the truth, confirming what came before it, and He sent
down the Taurat (Torah) & the Injil (Gospel)."
(Surah Ali
Imran: 2-3)
Posts
42 comments:
While refuting each point of the article will take too much time, any one who really wants to understand the truth of the Qu'ran can see it is wasy to replicate something like it.
http://suralikeit.com/
Also, recent discoveries of the Yemeni texts show the original Qu'ran was different than todays'.
For those with an open mind, go to youtube.com and search for "The Earliest copy of the Quran"
See who is talking, the guys who is the close mind, close eyes, close ears. Before you tell others about what being open minded I recommend that you don't be hypocriate and first start with yourself.
robert, you have so many comments which you ignored that I want to laugh at your ignorness, you are so bad that you even do bad job copy and pasting and its hard to believe you are a teacher.
Dear anonymous.
If you would like me to answer every individual point in the original post, I would be happy to do so with you individually. You can send me email at sievers2501 at yahoo dot com, and we will set up a one on one conversation. Or if you prefer, you can just continue to berate me without addressing any factual issues.
Also, your post illuminates something else about you. A long time ago, an anonymous poster claimed I was a teacher. I personally have never stated my vocation, yet you seem to believe an anonymous post about me without question. This seems very analogous to Muhammad, who believed an anonymous spirit entity who had no method or means of identification. Please continue to lecture me about "open mindedness". Jesus said if you follow Him that you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Instead of giving me your e-mail why don't you give me the place to meet so we can talk face to face instead of you playing with words. FYI: I am from FL too and I can drive anywhere in FL so let's meet and see how good of a missionary you are without copy and paste job. And if you are afraid to that then stop talking.
Robert it's waste of time to reply to your comment so in simple words I would encourage you to keep mouth shout since you don't even know arabic or else you won't even post that link.
Yeah! if you are real man and not coward then why not accept Anonymous challenge and meet him.
Dear anonymous,
I accept your challenge to meet face to face. I suggest we meet at your mosque the next time I am in Florida for Juma service. Email me, let me know where you live, and I will contact you the next time I am in Florida on a Friday. Please note, that may be some time, as I don't expect to be in Florida for at least another year.
Robert it looks like you are afraid to meet me which is fine, OH! Yeah take one year for preparing your usless arguments. I give you another option I will come and meet you as long as you are USA, I can arrange a meeting in a month. If you are not FL then you are in Denware?
Also when we meet I want you to bring your Bible by the way by the way let me know which version you are bringing.
It's funny that this robert guy is fighting a wrong war, Anonymous what I would ask this dude is do you think the Bible is more accurate then the Quran.
anonymous,
I cannot afford the expense of getting to Florida on a whim, although I do expect to be there for a few days next summer. However, since you are so keen on meeting face to face, that is fine. I am in the United States. Drop me an email, and we will set up a time and location. God willing you will see the truth.
Robert even for this you are playing but that's you way but anyways like i said give me the location and I will come and let me know which bible you are bringing. Lastly why don't you answer "Learning" question man.
anonymous
As for learning's question, yes, of course the Bible is more accurate than the Qur'an. That is where this conversation started.
As for my location, again, please email me and we will get it arranged. This isn't hard. Surely you can't be upset about me not revealing my address when you yourself won't evem reveal your name.
OK! if thats the case could you please answer few of my questions
1) tell me why we have different Bible version every few years and what are we comparing it from to do those changes?
2) Who has the last full copy of Bible?
3) When was Gospels of Luke, Mark, John etc written?
4) Who are the people who were in charge of putting the Bible to together and did they meet Jesus in person?
5) Why do you say Bible is more accurate then Quran, do you have some solid points to support that if so proof it or keep quite but don't do trash talk as you always do?
Last point you have to answer all my points or else you declare yourself to be not worth the time to talk and if you cannot proof then you proof the world that you are stumbon guy who just hates Islam because it's shows the truth and you are too scared to learn the truth.
1) tell me why we have different Bible version every few years and what are we comparing it from to do those changes?
I can see the reason for the question. You have been misinformed. What you have been told are “versions” are really translations. It’s like the Qur’an where you can read Shakir or Pickthal. Most Muslims have been lied to about this, and have been told the Bible has many different versions, which isn’t true. There is only one Bible.
2) Who has the last full copy of Bible?
Every Christian. You can have one too if you wish. If you want to read it in the original language, you will have to read ancient Greek.
3) When was Gospels of Luke, Mark, John etc written?
Approximately 60-70 A.D.. This was only 30 years after Jesus death and resurrection. In contrast, the Qur’an was not codified until much later after Muhammad’s death.
4) Who are the people who were in charge of putting the Bible to together and did they meet Jesus in person?
This is another area where you are misinformed. Nobody was “in charge” of putting the Bible together. The Christians of the 1st century knew which books were real and which were forgeries. After a few years, some heretics wanted to start using forgeries, so the Christians stated clearly what everyone of the day knew, which books were authentic. Today, the Holy Spirit confirms the Bible as God’s Word. It is amazing and I can still remember once I submitted to God how He showed me the difference between His Word and other books.
5) Why do you say Bible is more accurate then Quran, do you have some solid points to support that if so proof it or keep quite but don't do trash talk as you always do?
Yes. If you have an open mind, I will walk though your own Hadith which discuss the additions, deletions, and fabrications within the Qur’an. Email me at sievers2501 at yahoo dot com and I will show you.
Regarding your first answer, you must be kidding to yourself but the fact is Holy Quran was written in Arabic and there is no translation which can come close to it and the translation we have is from Arabic Quran which you can go to turkey and compare, not like Bible were till today there is a debate as to which language Jesus (PBUH) spoke. You said they is only one Bible, you can only say that if you think we are dumb or you are insane to think that.
Regarding your second answer you said every every christian has the full copy of it well my friend you are again wrong because no not all of them have the same thing because a few have 73 chapters and a few have 66 chapters and don't tell me the one you don't follow is not followed by christians; if you say that, well, you got another debate but not with us; instead with other christians
Regarding your third answer, it's sad that you don't know your own book FYI: Till today we don't even know some of the authors of the book.
Here is a good example of your bible; if you look at the gospel of Mark, the last chapter in the old manuscript only goes to verse 9. Then who added verses after that (FYI: No one knows who added them)?
Regarding the fourth answer, can you name the people who put the bible together because if they are not known it can be an evil person who changed it and put it together. First we don't know who the authors are, we don't know who put the whole bible together, we don't know why few verses have been added and taken out and you are comparing it with Holy Quran.
Regarding the fifth answer, no kidding. We are talking about Bible and not Hadith dude so stick to the point.
Dear anonymous,
It grieves me how misinformed you are. You have raised a number of points, but you are being so deceived it will take time to help you see truth. Let's start with your first point, that the Catholic Bible contains the apocrypha, whereas the Protestant Bible does not.
If you knew what the apocrypha was, this wouldn't be an issue for you. But since you do not know, let's use your own logic. Your assertion is that if members of a religion disagree on the holy book, then that holy book must not be true. Let's see if you believe yourself.
First, read
www.submission.org/quran/protect.html
Now, here are Muslims who say the Qur'an has been slightly changed. Now, according to YOUR logic (not mine) this invalidates Islam as a religion. So you tell me.
If some Christians use a variation of the Bible (including apocrypha), you say Christianity must be false.
If some Muslims use a variation of the Qur’an, do you say Islam must be false?
Do you still believe your own words?
First thing robert I asked you five question and since you are not able to answer them you take a U turn and play different game. Dude to answer you I need one line that is there is no Quran which say 114 chapter and another one says 100 chapter but there are Bibles which have 73 chapter and some are 66 chapter there is big difference. And remember we are not talking about verses or word missing we are talking about throwing few chapters in toilet as if you are the God and you can change it as you want.
I think Quran speaks about people like you:
Quran 2:171: And the example of those who disbelieve, is as that of him who shouts to the (flock of sheep) that hears nothing but calls and cries. (They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand.
Translation by: T.U. Hilali-M. Khan
Firstly, I apologize for taking so long to get back to you. I find that most often, Muslims are not actually interested in the answers to these tough questions. However, I am glad that in your case, you really want to know the truth behind the questions that you have raised.
The issue of the 7 extra books found in Catholic Bibles, called the apocrypha, was one you found unsettling. However, when the issue of different Qur’ans came up, you seemed to ignore the very same issue. From your point of view, you seem to feel that differences in the Qur’an can be ignored but differences in the Bible seem to point to error in your view. While I cannot understand this inconsistency of logic, you have suggested the difference is one of scale. However, if that is the case, I would be happy to show Hadith after Hadith that show the wholesale deterioration and destruction of the Qur’an that originally existed during Muhammad’s time. The point remains that the Catholic church did not accept these books as Biblical until 1546. Any issue you have with these books being added should be taken up with members of the Catholic Church, of which I am not. If you insist that their differing view nullifies Biblical authenticity, then you must also admit that different Qur’ans undermine Islamic authenticity. You must explain the difference of reasoning to me.
You talk about the last chapter of Mark, and state the verses after 9 were added. How strange that you don’t consider that some early manuscripts were not complete. In your own literature, there were partial copies of the Qur’an, written on bones and rocks. Yet you would never suggest the Qur’an you have now has been “added to”. Why are you so insistent that in the case of the Bible, finding early copies with most of the text proves corruption, but finding early incomplete copies of the Qur’an would just strengthen your faith. Can you even see the delusion you are trapped in?
As for who put the Bible together, the answer is the Holy Spirit. If you would like to know God, you can. When a Christian reads the Bible, the Holy Spirit testifies to its accuracy. If you would like more information, I would be happy to give it to you.
Finally, Islamic Hadith, and the Qur’an itself, testifies of its inaccuracy, and the accuracy of the Bible. Perhaps you would like to learn about your own religion, and what it teaches you that your imams never mention.
I asked you five questions, since you cannot answer them you start your old trick of making U turn and change the topic. Dude enough is enough you are what the above verse says. May God have mercy on you.
Hi,
Robert is right here. There is only one Bible. And that is
Roman Catholic Bible - 72 Books
Protestant Bible - 66 Books
Oops but there are two here, which one is right? Robert, please help.
Sure thing zac,
The extra seven books is called the apocrypha, and is not considered to have the same inspiration as the 66 cannonical books. Neither do they contain any doctrine, so their inclusion as additional supplimentary material has no effect.
Wow. that was easy. Would you be impressed if I took a cue from your friend Ahmed Bahgat and told how great I was for answering your qeestion in such an excellent fashion? No, I think rather I should just pray you will be open minded about who God truly is.
Robert,
Why did you say that there is only "one" Bible in the first place? Regarding your answer, the most dumb answer I've ever heard.
Robert, that is your opinion that those books are apocryphal. I have a friend of mine who is a catholic and he say that all the books are from God word for word.
Now who should I believe? I don't know, none of you are giving me convincing answers.
How do you like this?
zack,
Your friend is misinformed. Have him email me, and we will get it straightened out for you.
Robert, so who gets to decide what books are revalations and what books are apocryphal? i think it should be God himself or God through a Prophet of His.
And we know that it wasnt that Prophets that were involved in making the cannonical Bibles (Hebrew and Christian).
It was bishops/Priests and rabbis, and in your case King James. They left out things they didnt like and put in new things that they liked.
Who gave King James the authpority to take out entire books from the Bible and put in new verses? We knows King James isnt a Prophet so it cant be God...unless you are saying that King James too was somehow inspired by God??
The modern day Gospels come from over 24000 manuscrpts, NOT A SINGLE one of those is identical to another....sooo why is one of those more real than another one of those?
Plus as someone mentioned before there are books that arent even in the Bible, what makes them not divine revaltion?
There are several other churches than yours Robert, im guessin your a Born Again, and they believe in different books than you. And im not even talkin about Post Christ books like the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of great price, im talking about Gospels that existed with the current gospels and Hebrew books that existed before some of hte old testament.
For example the Ethiopian Chruch for centuries believed in the Book of Jubilees as divine revaltion just like Genesis. The Egyptian coptic church has been using the Gospel of Thomas for years.
In Islam we dont and cannot have this problem beacuase The Quran came from only one source (God) and only through one person (Muhammad(PBUH)) and he specifically said what is in the Quran what isonly hadith what is hadith qudsi etc etc Hence there cant be an archilogical find and another Quran pops up like gospels pop up beacuase there is only one Quran.
So Robert please dont bother. And the "suras" you guys claim to produce lol dont match the Quran in linguistics, or content or on a deeper level dont examine the Seal of the God of Israel (The mathematical code) that the Quran exhibits and so does the Torah. There are sooooooooo manyy other deficiencies in your fake suras this is just the tip of the iceberg.
You missionaries jump on anything you cant find eventough your own beliefs make absolutely no sense.
If you want you reputation then stay whatever you are but if you want slavation then you would become a Muslim.
As hadu an la ilaha il Allah wa ash hadu anna Muhammad an abduhu wa rasul uhu
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah alone and Muhammad (PBUH) is his slave and his messenger
abdurrazzaq,
I can't get over how much false information has been presented to you. Let's see if we can clear some of it up.
You are right, It is God who should decided, and did decide which books of the Bible were canonical. If you would more information on how He did this via the Holy Spirit, I would be happy to share this with you.
No Christian, bishop, priest, or layman, added anything new to the Bible, nor took anything away. King James had nothing to do with the cannon at all, as it had been set 1200 years before. So I am not sure what he had to do with anything. He just commissioned a translation.
abul majid,
The Coptic church does not consider the Gospel of Thomas canonical. You can see that for yourself at http://www.copticchurch.net/cgibin/bible/
As for the book of Mormon, you would find it interesting. It was given to its followers in an identical fashion as the Qur'an. The parallels are uncanny. Any argument given by a Muslim for the veracity of the Qur'an could also be used by a Mormon to support the "miraculous" nature of the revelation given to Joseph Smith through an angelic spirit. If you would like to see a dozen or so of those, let me know. We Christians recognize counterfeit a bit more easily, because Satan has always tried to undermine God's true message.
As for manuscript differences, let's try this.
1. The quick brown foxx jumped over the lazy dog.
2. The quick brown fox jumped over th- lazy dog.
3. The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
All three of those sentences are different. Do you have any idea what it says?
I hope you will stop listening to whoever is giving you false information, and start seeking truth yourself.
You know what Robert, forget all that holy spirit and inspiration thing, evntough you are loosing that argument.
Explain to me the trinity.
Robert,
Bismillah hir rahmanir rahim
First of all the brothers up their didnt say that the Gospel of Thomas was a part of the Coptic church's cannon. He only said that they use the Gospel.
And regrading Jesus (PBUH)'s beard...he said that he never saw a Christian portrayal of Jesus (PBUH) wihtouta beard and you mentioned a Muslim one lol
I would like you to answer Abdul Qabid's question but just to put an end to this matter.
There are more CANNONICAL BIBLES than yours
here, the book in the Ethiopian cannon from their ownwebsite...they have a few extra books that are nowhere in your bibles
http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html
And just to be noted NONE of the Gospels existed during the time of Jesus (PBUH) himself so that's why they annonymous writers who wrote them....you say are inspiredby thhe Holy spirit. The Quran came through prophet Muhammad (PBUH) so there really isnt an issue like that here.
Mormoms believe that there are trillions of world ruled by trillions of Gods who were once humans. This isthe complete opposite of the very purpose Islam so i dont even know how you dare say that the two are similar.
salam alaikum abdul,
Actually, the Hagia Sophia was originally a Christian church, renovated by the Turkish authorities. The beardless picture there of Jesus was created by Christians.
But, let's talk about more important things. Muslims put a lot of stock in the oral traditions, yet we read Volume 6,
Book 61, Number 559:
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget."
So, I will ask if this Hadith is true or not. Do men forget the Qur'an?
Next, the Qur'an says that the Torah, the Jabor, and the Injil are God's Word. (2:187; 4:163; 5:64), and the Qur'an also says God's word cannot be changed.
So why do you go against your own Qur'an, and claim that God's Word, (the gospels) have been changed? Don't you believe your own holy book?
salam alaikum abdul Qabid,
I will explain the trinity to you if you will first explain something to me. If Allah is one, how can be in heaven, and also closer to man than his jugular vein? (50:16) How can a unified God be in two place at once?
Walai kumas salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,
InshAllah ill answer both you concerns Robert.
First of All i absolutely love when you get creamed at an issue and then you ignore it like it never happened
Ok now let get serious
, You dont mention whatbook of hadith you ar reffering to but im guissen its Bukhari?
You dont have to look at a hadith to see that people forget things its general knowledge Robert.....whats you r point with that? If you are trying to say that the people forgot theentire quran and then re wrote it then that plain and stupid beacuase again there was over 100 thousand sahabi to cross check so really that falls flat
The verses you gave numbers to have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your point. So that just shows to me that you are simply copy pasting things without even botherin to read lol
You donot provide a verse saying God's word cannot be changed. And that's beacuse you know that providing the verse throws off the argument
But ill give you the verse..it Sura Maidah verse 114
but if you just botherd reading the verse before it then you'd know that the protected scripture is specifically reffering to the Quran and the one's who were given scriptures before it know that.
And the Allah being at two places at one.
LOL let me laugh out a bit at this one
If you didnt know then there is some thing as a metaphorical phrase.
Allah knows and sees and hears eveything....so when you call upon him he's always there.
Wow man im surprised a man like you has to pull out such a weak argument dayyum
And now sir, since all your distraction traps have been dismanteled will you get back to your trinity sir :)
And please if you think you got the truth then dont play around with other arguments..pray to God to give you guidence whatever it may be....ill ofcourse do the same.....and explain to me what this trinity is.
InshAllah may Allah make you not of those on whose hearts Allah has set a seal and may he lead you to the one truth (La ilaha il Allah Muhammad anrasulAllah)
Peace and guidence be unto who desire it
My apologies, I had a typo on my verses. The Qur'an tells you that the former Scripture is accurate.
[2.87] And most certainly We gave Musa the Book
[5.46] And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
[6.34] And certainly apostles before you were rejected, but they were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah, and certainly there has come to you some information about the messengers.
Notice here the Qur'an is refering to previous prophetic writings, not the Qur'an itself.
You can see the Qur'an clearly says that God gave previous revelation, and the Qur'an says God's word cannot be changed. My question to you is can it? Is the Qur'an wrong, that God's word can be changed? Or is the Qur'an right, and that God's word cannot be changed, so the previous Scripture have not been changed. You decide.
As for the Trinity. Consider that God can be everywhere at once. As you said, metaphorically speaking. So we have God in heaven. In that role, He is creator, All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and much more. God also can simultaneous exist within His own creation by placing Himself in a form that will not overpower creation itself. In this agency, God can, and did, interact with us one-on-one. Finally, God still interacts with us through the agency of the Holy Spirit. Nothing can know the thoughts of God but God Himself. It is jsut the three ways that the one God operates.
As salam u alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu
Robert Robert Robert, its almost sad now that first of all you are missing out on the truth and then following falsehood and then creating falsehood against the truth the defend the falsehood. May Allah guide you.
Yet again Robert, i went and check the verses you gave and guess what THEY DONT MATCH AGAIN!
verse 2.87 is
And they say, "Our hearts are wrapped (i.e. do not hear or understand Allâh's Word)." Nay, Allâh has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe.
verse 5.46 is
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn
verse 6.34 is
And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) a Message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: "This is nothing but obvious magic!"
So Robert yet again you prove that you are getting your data from Anti Islamic websites and are either fooled yourself or hoping to fool others.
Why are you trying so hard to fight the truth?
If you had tried half of that effort in becoming a good Muslim Allah knows how high your level in jannah wouldve been.
Anyhow the main question was the trinity and you did answer that.
Now Robert let me give you a headstart THE TRINITY cannot be explained...your top Christian preachers have said so but i still like to see you try.
Your answer, vaugue as that was wouldve have worked if i didnt actually know that God the father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit are three distinct peronalities with very very different attributes.
And if all three were indeed one then they shouldve possed all the charecteristics all at once.
Do you see what the trinity is saying?
Jesus (PBUH) just a human among 6.5 billion others humans, we are all just a speck campared to planet earth which is just a speck campared to the galaxy which is just a speck campared to the universe
and LOL your telling me that God become a speck!!!!!
you can put it nicely and say "o beloved speck" "o great speck" "O awsome speck" etc etc but the fact reamins you are calling God a speck LMAO!!!!
May Allah give you guidence and stop you from blashfemasizing against him and his beloved Prophets whose names you so utterly ruin.
think about what you say before you say it...aiight man :D
So true is my lord (and yours) when he said
surah 19 verse 30 onwards
""He ['Īsā (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;[]" (30) "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live." (31) "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest. (32) "And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!" (33) Such is 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute)"
btw you can go check that if you want at your anti Islam website and see if it matches lol
Robert, no oen can EVER convert you to Islam, you alone can do it. Allah gave you the free will to make that decision for you and on the day of judjment he will hold you accountable on that. You can lie to us and lie t yourself but you cannot lie to Allah.
On the day of Judgment the Very man you claim to worship (Jesus (PBUH)) will be a witness against you unless you follow his true religion and that of those who preceedd and succeded him, the religion of Islam.
i dont want a reply to this Robert, i want you to think and decide weather you want you reputation or pride or whatever it is in this life or you truly want God's satisfaction and eternal jannah.
I pray to theLord of the worlds to set not a seal on your heart and open your eyes.
And if you decide to stop vainly arguing and pursue the truth then this is the statement that will make you of therighteous
Ash hadu an la ilaha il Allah wa ash hadu anna Muhammadan abudu wa rasuluhu wa Isa hu abduhu wa rasul uhu
I bear witness that there is no god (None worthy of worship) but Allah and i bear witness that Muhammad (PBUH) is his slave and his messenger and Jesus (PBUH) is his slave and his messenger
Peace and guidence be with those who want it :)
Robert,
The verses that you gave do match....there was something wrong with Quranexplorer.com and it was showing one verse off in number
Please discard the response regarding that
Really really sorry about that
Just read ahead of it
Again srry bout that error :)
salam alaikum abdul,
It's ok. There is always a place for grace. Praise be to God He doesn't track each of our mistakes after we choose to be His children.
I will endeavor to answer the rest of your comments in due time.
salam alaikum abdul,
It is true that the Trinity is not some mathematical formula that adds up like an arithmetic problem. In fact, the trinity, as a word, just describes God's nature. However, I disagree that Father, Son, and Spirit have distinct attributes. They all share the same attributes; it is only the agency, or means, by which they expose themselves, that is different.
And you are very correct that we, as humans, are a speck relative to God. That is what makes His decision to temporarily become one of us so impressive. His love for us drove Him to leave His throne of glory for the sweaty, smelly, and fallen world that we humans created in order to pay our debt.
Finally, regardless of what your Qur'an teaches, there is no monetary reward, pride, or reputation issue on the line for me. Quite the contrary; it is you that would lose reputation and standing in your family if you chose God's true religion of Christianity.
All your life you have been deceived. Will you take a step back and look at God from a fresh perspective? That is what I did, and the truth led me to the True God.
Walai skumas askance wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu hu Robert,
In the name of the one true Allah
The Most gracious the Most Mercifull
You youself...by your common sense and logic not by what the Bible feeds you think.....why would God make it a requirment for us to believe in something that make absolutely no logical sense...THAT'S FLAT OUT INJUSTICE! And God my lord is the most just
It's like saying a their walks into a room and says ill rob everyone except the ones who can levitate in the air for one minute!
And again you dare calling God a speck....and to do what to pay our dues!!! Pay them to who??? To Himself!!!!
Just consider what you are saying
God thy lord dosennt need to become a man to forgive the very sins that he called sins to begin with
idk why anyone would believe this unless they were raised into it
As far as me wanting some reputation or whatever.....lol if I wanted any of that Islam would be the last religion id want to pick....I get called a terrorist for no reason everyday......I don't get to do annyyy of the things the rest of the teenagers my age are doing and what the societyy considers as the norm for peoople my age to do.....I don't even get to eat a hamburger at Mcdonalds for what its worth lol
Why on earth would some one pick a religion withholding spool many restricions unless they were completely sure that this is the way that will lead you to salvation
Just look at Islam....I know you claim to has read the Quran twice but I know and you know better than me that you haven't........if you really believe in God and truly want to submit to him then there is absolutely no other way than to accept Islam
It's plain and simple...you worship God thy lord with all thy heart and all thy might and all thy soul and he will love you and be pleased with you....and that my rewind is true salvation
Saying that I ask the lord of the creation to forgive our sins and lead us to the seerat al mustakeen Ameen
Peace be with those who follow guidence
salam alaikum abdul,
Actually, it is Islam that makes no sense to me. How can humans, specks that we are, fallen creatures, evil desires abounding, truly repent. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. How could we possibly repent without help from God? How could God just sweep our sins under the rug without justice? My friend, that is what makes no sense.
You claim that if we are good, then God can love us. I claim that if God loves us, we can be good.
Unlike the reasons the Qur'an gives as to why people reject it, I reject it thoroughly on intellectual grounds. Also, if I were you, I wouldn't believe me either regarding my study of Islam. Islam teaches you that it cannot be rejected by those who investigate it. Who wants to admit the religion they follow has been misleading them the whole time! It's much easier for you to assume I am lying than face reality.
Finally, unlike me, I am betting that you are the one raised into your religion.
Robert, you said Actually, it is Islam that makes no sense to me. How can humans, specks that we are, fallen creatures, evil desires abounding, truly repent.
OK, let's apply this understanding of yours to your own belief - How can we humans, specks that we are, fallen creatures, evil desires abounding, truly believe that Jesus dies for our sins? This will never let you get started because of the fundamental problem I highlighted.
Let's see what the Bible has to say about this:
20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [Ezekiel ; 18:20-21]
Let's see what Quran has to say in this regard:
70: Except him who repented and believed and did a good deed; then those are the ones of whom Allah changes their evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
71: And whoever repented and did good, he surely relents to Allah a (good) relenting. [Quran 25:70-71]
Robert you said You claim that if we are good, then God can love us. I claim that if God loves us, we can be good.
Think about it friend, there are several bad folks out there like rapists, drunkards, thieves, murderers etc. According to your understanding, they are not good because God doesn't love them - what a flawed understanding ! IMO, God is good to people who do good or atleast try to do good.
Hope that clears your misinterpretations up.
zack,
You have really hit on something. You said "How can we humans, specks that we are, fallen creatures, evil desires abounding, truly believe that Jesus dies for our sins?" You are quite correct. We cannot, on our own, find God unless He draws us near. Perhaps you have heard him calling you. Perhaps audibly, more likely inaudibly. God wants us a relationship with each one of us, and He knows we can never be good enough to even think to believe He would give us a free way to Him, so He helps each us to have the chance to believe Him.
I really like the passage you cited in Ezekiel 18. You are correct again. We must be righteous to be saved. So let's see who qualifies.
10 as it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
On this point, the Qur'an is correct as well. People will be judged on their "righteousness". Unfortunately, they will come up short. The scales will be light.
This is why Jesus needed to come, so that we could partake in His righteousness.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
It is never too late to turn to the true God, who loves each one of us. No matter what our sin, God loves enough to allow us the opportunity to trust Him to save us, not be our righteousness, but by Him whom He sent into the world, to overcome it.
Praise God!
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