Some ‘Muslim’ men think that their religion supports them in abusing women. Not only by beating them, also by denying them equal rights at best, giving them little to no rights at all far too often.
Sincere students of the Quran know that this does not in any way represent the system God has decreed for His worshippers. Just as everything is open for abuse, the verse decreed to actually protect women against the violent tendencies in men has also been abused. Submission (Islam) prohibits all forms of oppression, including spousal abuse.
The verse:
4:34 In the Quran states: The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.
At first glance people may interpret this verse as saying:
- Women have to obey their husbands blindly.
- Men can beat women if they don’t do what they want them to.
- Women have to stay at home.
Scrutinizing those interpretations on the basis of the whole Quran quickly generates an entirely different picture. We see instead that God prohibits wife beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don't want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this verse is defending the women's rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this section must be in favor of the women. This verses theme is "protection of women.
Does a woman have to obey her husband blindly?
The Quran teaches us that a woman has every right to disobey a man if his orders are not righteous. A man can only be righteous if his orders are in accordance with the Quran and in consideration of ALL of God’s laws, not only the ones he likes.
One of the laws in the Quran decrees that the believers shall decide their affairs on the basis of due consultation among themselves. Without the woman in this equation, there is no due consultation. Thus, it is a duty upon the righteous man to consult his wife before making important decisions.
Ultimately it is not the voice of the man that weighs heavier in the relationship of a couple that has decided to abide by God’s laws, it is the word of God. Thus, regardless of how highly a man regards himself or his opinions, God gives him no right to make decisions that opposes His commands. Thus, a righteous man will heed a reminder from the wife based on righteous expectations. Thus, a woman should learn the scripture to be able to give her husband those reminders. She should also carefully examine the belief of a man before choosing him as a husband to make sure he respects the rights God has granted her.
Another law in the Quran commands us to treat each other in the best possible way. We are also told that love and care are two essential ingredients of a healthy marriage.
Must someone be in charge?
It is a fact of life that for people to be able to function well together they need to agree on whom should be in charge. We accept this arrangement in all other aspects of our lives, such as when we choose government, when we are employed, and so on, and so on.
We do not feel oppressed for example, because we have to submit ourselves to a legal system that demands of us that we behave a certain way or else holds us responsible. We understand the logic and need for such a system and generally don’t mind following it because we want others to follow it as well, that we may feel safe where we are. Why should it be any different in a marriage situation, which in itself is an institution that must have certain rules and laws.
The order that God decreed for decision making in the family is this; children are obligated to obey their parents, unless they advice them to worship other than God. The parents are together responsible for making balanced decisions for the whole family. When no agreement can be reached between the husband and the wife on what course of action to take, one must have the heavier vote. This is simple logic. The only other option is if someone else decides for your family.
The Quran teaches us that God gave man the final word in the family. Again, this must be after due consultation, without abusing his right, considering what is in the best interest and most fair for all. This is a huge responsibility to carry, especially considering the seriousness by which God regards oppression. He says oppression is worse than murder.
Does a Muslim husband have the right to beat his wife to get her to do what he wants?
Absolutely not! The whole point of the verse is to protect the women in situations where men would tend to resort to violence, when tempted to take advantage of their physical strength over women. Such situations would be for example when a wife has angered her husband by behaving in a way that jeopardizes the safety or the integrity of the family.
A man can never be justified in using his strength to subdue a wife into behaving to his personal liking. The wife has the right to be an individual, with her own personal interests, career, or what have you, just as her husband. Nor can he use this option to subdue his wife into practicing the religion, since there must be no compulsion in religion.
So why does the Quran even mention beating of the wife?
What the verse does, is give a Righteous man Specific commands when dealing with a wife who is behaving in an unrighteous way, posing a threat to the safety of herself or the family. The verse is there to help him restrain his violent tendencies in tense situations by giving him strict guidelines to go by. It is a well-known fact that tendencies towards violence are generally much stronger in men than in women.
Thus, regardless of how upset a husband is about the behavior of his wife, he is not permitted to do anything else but talk to her properly first. If she ignores him and continues to commit the same transgression, he may as a second alternative stop being intimate with her as a means to persuade her. Only as a third and final option, if she insists on maintaining the behavior, he has the right to physically try to correct her.
Is becoming physical ever justified?
In our society we feel that the police is justified in sometimes grabbing hold of people, and restraining them from continuing to pose a threat to themselves and others, until they realize their wrongdoing and promise to change. We see the logic in this, and fully support this action. In a marriage, God made the husband the first point of correction for a wife behaving in a way correlating to that level of misbehavior.
By: Brother.
50 comments:
For a scholarly article on wife beating and wife discipline in Islamic Law, written by two Michigan State law students, look at the Cienfuegos blog at http://gimmetruth.wordpress.com/2006/06/04/discipline-as-a-means-to-marital-reconciliation/
Also, I am posting brief comments at Therapeutic Family Law, my blog at http://therapeuticfamilylaw.blogspot.com/
Thank you James for your link to the article and to your blog.
Kindly,
Gary Soliman
Gary why didn't you compare western men attitude towards women because to be that's the worst were women are seen only as sex toy were if a women don't don't dress up half naked then u r seen as old fashion. Its just for fun for men in the name of liberation.
I completely agree with you Anonymous, I will conceder your suggestions in future articles insh'Allah (God willing)
So are you suggesting that wife-beating is Islam's alternative to Christendom's sexual depravity? Can we just mutually denounce wife-beating and sexual depravity alike?
No I am not suggesting that wife-beating is Islam's alternative to Christendom's sexual depravity, those are two completely different subjects.
No we can not just mutually denounce wife-beating and sexual depravity alike.
I propose that we do mutually denounce wife-beating and sexual depravity alike. If Muslims have any ideas on how we Christians can eradicate the sexual depravity that you have rightly identified, I will be grateful. I would hope that Muslims of good will are also grateful for any help against their plague of wife-beating.
This is not to suggest that either Christendom or the Ummah have monopolies on wife-beating or sexual depravity. We have unacceptable levels of wife beating in Christendom, and as a former Las Vegas cab driver, I can assure you that there is abundant sexual depravity among Muslims.
But what's different is that some Christians seem to think God is indifferent to sexual depravity, and some Muslims think Allah countenances wife-beating.
Muslims certainly do not have a plague being wife-beating, men beat their wives in all religions and cultures. Islam certainly does not encourage or promote wife-beating, this is a sin in any righteous religion thus Islam does not denounce wife-beating as it is left as an absolute last resort though is it strongly discouraged. Please explain to me what you mean by sexual depravity?
By sexual depravity I mean exactly what your previous Commenter, "anonymous" referred to: men who see women as sex toys, women who want to be seen as sex toys. In my personal experience, many Muslim men are as depraved as Western men when they know that they are anonymous. So when they come to Las Vegas, or when they attend a Western university, they give free rein to their sexual depravity, which they conceal and deny when they are back among Muslims again.
It's also well known that Muslim men sexually abuse and physically abuse their servants in Saudi Arabia, and that Muslim men in Sudan kidnap girls from the south, rape them, beat them, and impress them into slave labor.
I say these things not to exonerate the West for our own depravity. I believe our sexual depravity creates a stench in God's nostrils, and that He will hold us accountable for it on the Day of Judgment. But no intelligent person can accept the pretense that Christians are the only people with an urgent need for self-confrontation.
It's not a "last resort" when a man beats his wife to establish his authority over her (her obedience to him). A last resort would be self-defense, or intervention to prevent her from injuring a child.
I agree with you james, some Muslims act differently when they are outside their own country, committing sins as if they were no longer Muslims when they leave their own country/turf: This is forbidden in the Quran. Islam does not condone or encourage this behavior in any way possible.
A sinner is a sinner in any part of the world and is accountable for all his or her sins no matter what the location.
It is not known to me that Muslim men sexually abuse and physically abuse their servants in Saudi Arabia or Sudan, this behavior is unacceptable by any righteous religion let alone Islam. Islam teaches the complete apposite of this and everyone is accountable for his or her sins, being rape, Murder or what may have you. Abuse in any way is forbidden in Islam, people that cause harm to others are extreme sinners in my opinion.
When I say last resort, I mean exactly that, like when you say: intervening to prevent her from injuring a child could easy mean aggressive measures by the husband to prevent harm to the baby,period. Wife beating is not condoned in Islam and is considered as a last resort in extreme circumstances such as self-defense or preventing harm to others.
On the contrary, you will find in my article that Islam teaches Muslim men to love, adore and cherish their wives fulfilling their every need, far from encouraging them to cause any harm to them or any other human being, being a servant or what may have you.
Islam promotes peace, happiness, sincerity, righteousness, prosperity, love, good health, honestly, loyalty, and much more as long as it is sin free and righteous.
Once again, everyone is held accountable for his or her sins come judgment day.
Peace be upon you and your loved ones.
Interesting perspective that you would suggest the reference to violence against women (no matter the justification with the context of the whole of the Quran) is ultimately a protection against women. Within the context of the time it was written it did offer more protection for women than was available to many but that was then and this is now. The real question goes to the heart of the Quran itself which at 2:2 says: 'this scripture is infallible; a beacon for the righteous' this means it cannot be mistaken and the context for this as with all the sura is it is timeless. The question each reader really has to ask themselves is if they accept the Quran as it cannot be portioned out into what you accept and do not accept. I am female and my belief is between my self, my conscious, my concept of God and my relationship with this perception. This of course opens me up to criticism and I know that what is said in the Quran and the continued denegrated status of women in different parts of the world are two different things but I will never reconcile to anyone male or female beating me and let's be clear, no matter how this is couched, it is allowed. If this means I effectively declare myself operating outside of the sura of the Quaran then so be it.
Anonymous I understand what you are saying here and I feel you speak from past experiences, I don't think you should work or live outside any part of the Quran though reread and try to take it in a different perspective, try to put past experiences behind you and don't let them cloud your thoughts, remembering that the Quran is the true and solid message from the beneficent one, there are no in betweens just the fact that it is the perfect and true message.
I appreciate the recognition you give the experience that violence can be damaging but I didn't focus in on it because it is the topic but because it exemplifies the very point you make, that you either accept the Quran as a 'perfect and true message' or you do not. This I think is the shame of it because it has much to offer, as does the Torah and the gospels from which it draws so much. The use of violence throws into relief one of the issues that faces the 21st century but this is nothing new under the sun. Fortunately, although some of us do not have to live in the conditions prevalent at the time of the writing of the Quran were steeped, sadly so much has still yet to change. So much of what is written in the holy books direct to abiding to ritualised behaviours (even paganism did and still does have ritualised behaviour)and I think this is why what some of what sufism and gnosticism and zen buddhism have to offer is rejected because they fall outside of the holy books. These strains all offer unmediated connection with God but are not an easy option. Quoting Hidayat Inayat-Khan http://www.sufimovement.org/whatsufiis.htm 'Through the ages there has been one religion after another, but each one came as a confirmation of the previous one. Now, in our century and with the development of science and communication, it has become clear that each religion had a special purpose to fulfil at a particular period of human evolution. For the wise, one can only be really attuned to any religion if one’s heart is open to all religious beliefs with the same love and understanding for each.' This I believe too. I know this reads as heresy to many Muslims but I know that I am a spiritual being drawing on all the messages of the faiths to make my statement to God and ultimately what that means is for no other man to judge.
There is no doubt that The Quran is the Perfect, accurate and true message. Don't let any other message cloud your thoughts but try to reread the Quran.
The right to physically correct her? So, even if it is not allowed after 100 other courses of actions, it is still allowed. That is a difficult thing to accept, for me at least. It seems to me that a man who is inclined to beat a woman (and of course not all are, regardless of how much correcting the woman needs) does not need to be told it is ok (even after the speaking and denying relations tactic), while a man who is not so inclined wouldn`t do it anyway.
zoe, you got it totally wrong when you say "The right to physically correct her?" Not its not instead The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap.
Another thing you have notice that Islam is the only religion which actually restrict men from doing any harm to women. Give me on religion which even talks about it.
Dear Zoe,
Islam encourages men to love, respect, adore and cherish their wives far from beating them. this action is taken under extreme and rare circumstances.
I feel my thoughts have been dismissed. Well, so be it, I have read, contemplated, prayed extensively - my conscience is clear and whether it is clouded or not is not to be judged by anyone -judgement lies elsewhere and this is stated in the Quran, so we have to leave that thought there.
Returning to the original purpose of the blog though, it is a source of great sadness that countries where Islam has been the faith system for centuries still has women as trading chips often when they are little more than children. I'm not saying countries dominated by other faiths shouldn't have a spot light thrown on them for their hypocricy but my question is why has Islam not been able to break this cultural, patriarchal dominance where women are lost as objects for trading. This is different in different countries but violence is absolutely accepted as a means of control. Even in the UK a very sober Muslim woman of my acquantaince said the best she hoped for was a husband observant of their faith but said she was afraid that being beaten could happen to her.
Actually Jainism completely rejects violence of any kind, with their monks sweeping their path in front of them to avoid stepping on an insect and wearing masks so they don't even inhale an insect. Jains believe in Ahimsa: "non violence in all parts of a person -- mental, verbal and physical." I think we can safely say this includes 'tapping' your wife.
Dear Zoe,
When I say clouded I meant exactly that, maybe by past experiences or even an acquaintance. Crime is unacceptable in any righteous religion let alone Islam. We can't go blaming Islam for the way women are being treated in Muslim countries or non-Muslim countries, The Quran does not condone or incourage this behaviour in any form, and crime is unacceptable in any culture. Once again and I can't stress this enough that >>> Islam encourages men to love, adore, respect, cherish, pamper and simply treat their partners in the best way possible creating a life filled of euphoria. Islam is a religion of peace, respect, righteousness, prosperity and everything else enjoyable, beautiful and fun filled as long as it is not going to harm you or anyone else or anything else for that fact.
Anyone that mistreats women, animals or even themselves are sinners in any righteous religion let alone Islam.
Peace be upon you and your loved ones.
If Jainism are so careful what do they eat? If you say vegetables then they are actually breaking there own law. FYI: there is no way a person can go with even killing a small insect and if they eat they actually are voliently killing small animals that live on that plants. Islam is a way of live and Jainism is going against that to another extreme which it even can follow.
What does Jainism say about women rights, self defense, eating, bathing, man rights, child's right, rights of poor, rights of divorce female, family rights, victims right who was murdered, raped, animals rights etc. If you can show me that we can compare and see who is actually open and talks with fairness.
Peace.
I intended to quote from the posting- the second to the last paragraph- when I questioned "the right to physically correct her". I see now that I missed one word- it actually says "the right to physically try to correct her", I believe. Nonetheless, it is still a strange idea to me. "Beating" and "a light tap" are not even close in meaning. Furthermore, "extreme cases"- wouldn`t this be the woman`s "right" or, at the very least, her instinctive reaction if say, her husband is endangering her child- to "lightly tap" or even "beat" him? I cannot imagine any case where this whole issue has any concrete meaning or practical application.
All talk of other religions is out of synch with the purpose of this blog - to discuss the use of correction on a 'wife' even if it is a symbolic tap. The intention of the act is to represent through action 'stop' you will now be obedient to my will because I say so as the husband. It is a permission given to husbands in the Quran. It has been stated in this blog by adherents the Quran is 'perfect and complete' so the choice is simple - you either accept that a wife is subjugated to a husband or not. If you can't accept that you reject the Quran.
I see no-one has answered my question as to why in the countries where Islam has been dominant for centuries that the cultural male patriarchy has remained in place and women are still trading chips? PLEASE don't reply with 'what about other religions' I am asking a specific question and would much appreciate someone answering it directly. I'm not arguing that the Quran does address human rights so why are women still so thrown down where it is the majority religion...and yes I do know Muslim women in the UK and have listened to their stories from Bangladesh and Pakistan. Frankly I'd be surprised if this one got an answer.
The person who took exception to Jainism was practically bristling with religious intolerance. It existed before Islam and the root of Islam rests in other faiths even if it is seen as a revitalisation of a purified montheism. I can feel the annoyance rising from here! I'm not trying to bait anyone i'm just saying its a cheap shot to say what are the rules and regulations of other faiths (by the way i referenced the activity of monks - aesthete Jains not their general population).If you believe in the Quran and Islam there's no need to get so clearly agitated.
OK! people instead of trying to pick on Islam why don't you say what your religion says about women, if it even mentions them with men. Forget about that just tell me if women have any rights in your religion. It's amazing when I ask u about your religion you change the topic and the answer is simple because i know it doesn't even come close to Islam and thats the fact and you know that. As far as ZOE, ""Beating" and "a light tap" are not even close in meaning." Do you speak Arabic if not then learn it and you will know it. ZOE, instead of jumping on last step do you even care of understand the whole thing. Holy Quran doesn't give men to tap women in first place but they are steps to it and the last one is tap. ZOE have u read Holy Quran and tell the TRUTH.
This answer was originally intended for you anonymous.
Crime is unacceptable in any righteous religion let alone Islam. We can't go blaming Islam for the way women are being treated in Muslim countries or non-Muslim or even Bangladesh or Pakistan, The Holy Quran does not CONDONE or encourage this behavior in any form, and crime is unacceptable in any culture.
Once again and I can't stress this enough that >>> Islam encourages men to love, adore, respect, cherish, pamper and simply treat their partners in the best way possible creating a life filled of euphoria. Islam is a religion of peace, respect, righteousness, prosperity and everything else enjoyable, beautiful and fun filled as long as it is not going to harm you or anyone else or anything else for that fact.
Anyone that mistreats women, animals or even themselves are sinners in any righteous religion let alone Islam, this behavior is witnessed world wide not only in Muslim countries. It seems like, since 9/11 it's been blame it all on Islam and the Muslims, before that we were kind, caring and righteous.
Don't let 9/11 cloud your thoughts or any crime committed by Muslims as that is all it is, is a crime and they are criminals that commit these crimes.
There is no doubt on this earth that The Holy Quran is the message from God, and there is no doubt that Muhammad (Peace be upon him)delivered it to us.
A very important point I need to make here;
Muslims accept the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible as messages that came from God, before the Final message, being the Holy Quran. Muslims that don’t accept the Holy Torah or the Holy Bible are not as one would say 100% Muslim. This is a misunderstanding of the final message when not accepted by Muslims, being the Holy Quran, as the Holy Quran teaches and confirms that the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible were also messages from the divine one (God/Allah)
Let me just add this; Christians and Jews are always looking down at Islam and Muslims, far from accepting Islam and Muslims, so the plain truth is that Muslims accept the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible as a true message from (God/Allah)
So in fact; Muslims are Jews and then Christians, before they can finally be Muslims as both, the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible are mentioned in the Holy Quran. This is hard to believe but it is the simple truth of the Holy Quran that most non-Muslims don’t know of.
So in plain words; we believe in and accept their religions, messages and prophets and they won’t accept the final prophet with the final message, being the prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and the Holy Quran.
That could only mean one thing; If you accept either the Holy Torah or The Holy Bible to be messages from from God then you Must accept The Holy Quran as it is the continuation of both or either. How can it know so much of what is mentioned in the Holy Torah and The Holy Bible and accept them both if it wasn't legitimate and a true messages from God.
Peace be upon you and your loved ones.
Its a shame one respondee is reaching for posturing about other religions when they know nothing about them, instead they make grand statements about 'no other religion comes close' to Islam. It is a sad testament to those (of any religion) who hold it so dear to them the merest hint of criticism makes them indignant. Remember, Islam draws from the wellspring of Judaism and Christianity. Judaism is highy formalised (no I'm not Jewish I have no religion, I believe in syncretism and I do believe I have a spiritual relationship with God)and does extensively address relations between men and women. This link is a fragment of that but some research (something the respondee does not seem to do)online will show how very similar it is to Islam http://www.beingjewish.com/faqs/men_women.html I would ask the respondee have you ever read anything other than the Quran? Your indignation is out of place here if you have not.
Gary, I think you misunderstand me when I ask why the desperate treatment of women which predates Islam continues in countries where Islam is the nationally recognised religion. I am not demonising Islam, I know that anyone wherever they are in the world mistreating the vulnerable are wrong doers in the eyes of their faith. I am asking why centuries old treatment of women continues. Islam has condemned it so I am asking for opinions as to why it continues? Judeo-Christianity has had a chequered history in different countries but you will be hard pressed to find accounts of young brides setting fire to themselves rather than continue being beaten by mother in laws or husbands; or 40 year old men marrying 11 year old girls (Afghanistan)Honour killings (Pakistan and UK) and general lack of access to education and work opportunites. I quote from an article written by an Muslim journalisthttp://arabist.net/archives/2007/11/26/tahawy-on-saudi-arabia-treatment-of-women/: 'In 2002, 15 schoolgirls died when officers of the morality police would not let them out of their burning school building — and barred firefighters from saving them — because the girls weren’t wearing the headscarve and the black cloak that all women must wear in public.'
9/11 may have warped the West's consciousness of Islam but even Bush has distanced himself from the work of extremists and the teaching of Islam (I will provide a link if requested)It's naive to think that everyone had a loving image of Muslims before that terrible event. What do you think the 11th century Crusades; the 15th century campaigns of Suleiman and the hostilites between the Hindus and Muslims at the time of India's partition were about?
Apologies my reference to Bush is meant to read he absolutely recognises the difference between faithful Muslims and the word of Islam and extremsists who misrepresent Islam.
Anonymous you said "I am asking why centuries old treatment of women continues. Islam has condemned it so I am asking for opinions as to why it continues?" The reason is simple because so called Islamic countries don't even follow Islam. For example Afghanistan it banned women from getting education but if you read Holy Quran they are clearly going against Islam. Islam commends everyone to get educated and says that its basic right of every human being.
You also said "Judeo-Christianity has had a chequered history in different countries but you will be hard ...Honour killings (Pakistan and UK) and general lack of access to education and work opportunites."
FYI: For worst countries for women after Afghanisan is a Christian country {UN List} the reason we don't make a big deal of it is because of Bias media and currently Islam is the hot cake for media.
As far as Honor killing that is not Islamic and this blog already covered that so i highly recommend you and others to to read about it.
http://askmuslims.blogspot.com/search/label/Honor%20Killing%20from%20an%20Islamic%20Perspective
The problem with most people who write or speak against Islam is that they have never read the Holy Quran from chapter 1 to chapter 114 or else they won't speak against Islam. And when i say reading Holy Quran i don't mean out of context but in full.
lastly instead of being anonymous why don't u put your name that way we can discuss and not get confuse as to who we are talking to.
Peace.
Interesting timing here as it was International Women's Day on the 8th March. We coud trade the numbers on worst countries for women but the top ten are 7 muslim countries, 2 christian and 1 hindu http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/326354 By the way,
Sweden is listed as the best country for womens rights (mostly Christian although approx 150 000 muslims live there)
The blogger who raised the issue of Islam versus the cutural experience of women in muslim countries is not saying they are one and the same. It is acknowledged that Islam and the cultural experience of some muslim women are different things but why don't the Imams speak out?
Anonymous, first of all it would be easy if you could give yourself a nick name instead of being called Anonymous.
Secondly I don't know were you got the numbers "top ten are 7 muslim countries, 2 christian and 1 hindu" because from the list it doesn't seems that they are 7 muslim countries. I was going through the list an i noticed that Pakistan was on the list and it said honor killing, which is not Islamic so u cannot say its Islam but its Pakistani culture, Imam's probably say its wrong but they still do it, same like Pope, he says having sex out of wedlock is prohibitted but still western men and women do it, so can you blame a religion for that?
FYI: In USA it's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Women are 10 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape. By the way i didn't make that number but its from a US site here is the link http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html
Abdullah, if you read the link I included all 10 are there, although 5 are embedded in the text. They are: Afghanistan; Congo;Iraq; Nepal; Sudan; Guatemala; Mali; Pakistan; Saudi Arabia and Somalia. Again, 7 muslim, 2 christian and 1 hindu (I am a post graduate in research so you'll need to be more accurate in replies; you give a link in your counter argument that uses references that are up to 17 years out of date - please if you want to trade number and sources be more accurate I know this stuff so don't FYI unless you know how).
So to reiterate - 7 out of the 10 countries are muslim and the Imams have not made a dent in these atrocities against women. Pakistan is officially a muslim country so unless you can argue the population is sleep walking through their lives they know what they are doing and using 'culture' is not enough of an excuse - where are the Imams!
You can't seriously compare the Pope speaking out against sex before marriage and 11 year old Afghani girls who should be playing with dolls rather being married off are you? Your argument is spurious and the logic tenuous.
I do think Christian countries have alot to answer I simply want to know why the Imams are not out on the streets of the countries that are abusing Islam and harming women!
Anonymous, OH! well you missed my first point but that's ok!
It's very interesting that you want to stick to this issue and not talk about other ones but if you want clear this up and move forward then so be it.
OK! you did do some research good for you and inshaAllah (God Willing) you do that same thing with Holy Quran one day too.
Come to you point you said they are 7 muslim countries now let me ask you how many of those countries actually follow Islam and run their country by Sharia Law. When i say Sharia Law i mean 100% not pick and choose what is good for there dictatorship. Please don't say Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan run through Sharia law because if say so then you didn't do your homework.
Next thing you ask was "where are the Imams!" The answer is simple in JAILS of this so called Muslim countries because they are threat to this dictators and the ones who are out not all but the ones in high positions of these countries are afraid to speak up or they are puppets of those dictators. I hope you do your homework on that too.
You said "I simply want to know why the Imams are not out on the streets of the countries that are abusing Islam and harming women!" Like i said above, they are in JAILS. May Allah help them and free, Ameen.
Could it be that wife-beating was allowed in ancient communities because if a wife did a promiscuous act that would endangered the family relationship to the community? So if a woman went to sleep with a man outside her marriage the Koran laws would justify her beating. But I am sure it gets deeper than this with regards to Sharia law and why did she go to sleep with a man who is not her husband in the first place. Was it the husband's fault, then the husband may get a beating as well. Maybe this law deals with situations to prevent divorces that heart families and societies in the first place. So if a man and a woman read the Koran and understand the law, maybe they would not sleep
outside their marriage. Now this is different than the western liberal societies. But could it be that it is different to protect the survival of the Muslim people and their religion? Westerners need to understand the Muslim society before laying judgment on it. Muslim people need to decide for themselves what works for them, not have others impose their believes on them. This also holds true for all people and religions. McDonald's, Coca-Cola, and Freedom Fries may not be what others want.
Igor, I want to be sensitive to the views of the sincere Muslims who have posted here, but your views - which is to say, cultural relativism and Western nihilism - fall outside that category.
I must say it is appalling to hear a man suggest that we're unqualified to pass judgment on a woman's violent assailant unless we have a thorough knowledge of the victimizer's culture.
Have you ever heard a Muslim woman defend wife-beating? Did it ever occur to you that the woman, the victim of this violence, also has a culture?
The Muslim posters thus far have written that wife-beating is contrary to Islamic teaching. Yet you counsel Western paralysis against it, just in case the assailant believes wife-beating is indispensable to his "culture."
Let me catch you beating a woman, Igor, and I'll demonstrate some of my culture to you. I hope you won't judge me, because you obviously don't understand my culture.
Has anyone considered the option of moving beyond the formalised structures of the inherited faiths such as Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism to consider this matter? You may think what does this have to do with wife beating but in the roots of the Quran, the Jewish Talmud, the Christian New Testament the writings of the Sangha were practices where adherents experienced 'gnosis' - a relinquishing of self into religious experiences beyond any culture. In the early days of the great faiths were those who were trusted for their communications with God and these 'noble truths' were oral traditions shared before they became written down and crystallised but more critically stylised and opened to interpretation. Muhammed's first revelations had few dictates but they grew over time.
I say all the major faiths have failed. Christianity, Islam, Judaism - all failed. They served a purpose at their time and their prophets even had revelations that served the times and they were allowed to believe they were the transmitters of absolutes. What follower wants to hear a master to say, 'I am the teacher for the here and now' when universal truths are sought? Each of us are capable of that 'gnosis' but have to be prepared to project these experiences into the way we live our lives. Jesus was not the completion of God's spiritual transmissions, neither was Buddha, neither was Muhammed. It is errant to place yourself in the position of universal seer.
How does this translate into Islam and wife beating? I believe Muhammed improved the position of women then but not now. The purpose has been and gone. No man is or will be my 'head' I manage my relationships through intelligence, modesty of ego and my own humility through gnosis gifted through the wisdoms repeated in themes in the worlds many writings. So no, it is not alright for a man to symbolically tap me to reassert his position. I have a keen intellect and profound sense of the spiritual. No book or prophet need tell me my responsibility within relationships. I do accept though that some remain spiritually dependent and need to be led by the hand but I should not be criticised because I do not.
I never said beating a woman is okay by any culture, Muslim, Jewish, Christian or any else.
But you have to look at the time Koran was written. You have to examine the time that idolatry and other unclean practices were rampant.
Stop looking at things in a vacuum.
There must have been a need to write such a thing in the Koran. Same like in the Old Testament, that the Hebrews should kill all their neighbors. Well the Hebrews did not kill their neighbors, so the neighbors sold them into to slavery to Egyptian, Assyrians, Greeks, and the Romans.
Did God really mean that the Hebrews should kill all their neighbors or that they should build a society to incorporate their neighbors?
So let's not beat our wives..:) I do not think anyone is into wife beating unless something is really mentally wrong with them!
Igor - you are absolutely right, well said. You have made a perfectly pitched statement and it has heartened me :) If everyone were equally aware of your clarity the world would be a better place. God bless you. Annette
So Koran tells husband to beat the wife in order to protect the woman? A brilliant example of Islamic demagogy and sophism!
Before you post your comment atleast read the article because if you would have read it you wouldn't have commented the way you did.
Peace.
Does anybody have an opinion as to the threshold at which a Muslim woman should leave her husband for violence? Is this threshold different than for a kaffir woman? Should this be reflected in marriage counseling of Muslim couples by secular therapists?
Let me give a saying of Prophet Muhammed Peace be upon him
The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."
Is Sharia law limited to the best kinds of husbands and happiest marriages, or does it apply also to broken, dysfunctional relationships?
James Stinson, thanks for asking the question. The answer to your question is Sharia Law is not just limited to good people but it is for everyone because it's meant for all of the mankind. FYI: Today there is not a single country which follows Islamic Sharia law 100%. I hope this answers your question.
Thank you. Does Sharia law therefore prescribe penalties for husbands who inflict impermissible physical abuse on their wives, or are the men on a sort of "honor system?" In other words, are husbands self-policed, by contrast to the wives, against whom Sharia prescriptions are enforced by men, including their husbands?
James Stinson, Holy Quran clearly gives answer to your question
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"
Therefore there is no concept of "Honor system" with regard to men being cruel to the wife. The man is also accountable for taking care of his wife with respect and honor.
Even after Knowing if the husband abuses his wife as above verses says the wife can ask for a divorce.
Breakthrough study, very comprehensive: http://Quran434.com
More or less, the scripture concerning correcting of wives and husbands have been twisted and corrupted. Many times if you find older and older copies of religious texts, you will find they have different wordings that are more in tune with the message. This is only theory as I don't speak Arabic, but the 'wife beating' passage might of had a few more words such as "if the actions of the husband or wife run counter to the teachings" that might have been removed when cleaning the texts up. The Quran means Recitation or telling by mouth as Muhammad had the teaching recited to him by an angel so something could have been lost when it was put to paper for everyone to read. Allah or God's words are pure and right, but Man is fallible and will get things wrong so read whole passages with the idea of "God loves Peace and Love" in mind and the passages of most any holy book will become abundantly clear.
Peace be with you all.
-Mark
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